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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mothers alcohol use shown on medical records

285 replies

RegularHumanBartender · 16/09/2020 15:24

I have just stumbled across this on the Sky news homepage and I am horrified. I have no words! Apologies if there is already a thread, I did scan the first page but I couldn't see one.

Talk about reducing women to sacred incubators! I am struggling to form sentences I am so incensed by this. Not sure if this is even the right place to post.

news.sky.com/story/mothers-alcohol-use-could-soon-be-shown-on-childs-medical-record-prompting-privacy-fears-12073153

OP posts:
Clymene · 17/09/2020 12:24

[quote FlorenceNightshade]@Clymene from a risk assessment point of view the number of pregnancies/number of siblings question may be relevant. Likewise any complications may be relevant to new baby. That’s why it’s included.[/quote]
They are relevant to my pregnancy. They are of no relevance to the child once its been born.

FlorenceNightshade · 17/09/2020 12:26

@BehindtheBump it might be mentioned if it became relevant. Not engaging or appearing to be dishonest would raise a red flag but sometimes nothing comes of it, pregnancy progresses well, baby thrives, no further concerns “case closed” so to speak.

But if a mother failed to engage, missed appointments and then was found to be using drugs, or there was DV for example then yes the circumstances would likely be recorded in child’s notes.

Part of it is arse covering by the professionals. If you read significant case reviews where children have died due to parental actions or neglect then they always examine maternity records. Did mum attend appointments? If not, was it actioned etc. Of course that’s an extreme example but I hope it gives an insight into why professionals record seemingly irrelevant or private information. It’s about creating a big picture (if there is one) not breaching a parents confidentiality

FlorenceNightshade · 17/09/2020 12:30

@Clymene I’m sorry but that’s just not true in all cases. If a women has had multiple pregnancies that ended in stillbirth or miscarriage then that’s relevant. If a women attends an appointment and expresses that she’s not coping as she already has children at home the the number of siblings is relevant.

In a situation where there are no pre/post natal concerns then yes the information feels intrusive and irrelevant but it has to be gathered “just in case”. I appreciate that won’t sit right with everyone

NiceGerbil · 17/09/2020 12:42

The phrasing 'case closed' certainly makes it sound like mothers are automatically investigated and have to prove they are not doing/ have not done anything 'wrong'.

I'm sure it wasn't intended that way but for someone involved in this it's an interesting choice of words.

NiceGerbil · 17/09/2020 12:44

'I’m sorry but that’s just not true in all cases. If a women has had multiple pregnancies that ended in stillbirth or miscarriage then that’s relevant.

To the medical records of the child once it is born? How?

If a women attends an appointment and expresses that she’s not coping as she already has children at home the the number of siblings is relevant.'

Then mother is attending and it will say in her record how many children she has. Or, the GP can simply ask. Which they would normally do rather than trawling back through the notes (of the child??!!)

NiceGerbil · 17/09/2020 12:45

'. If a women attends an appointment and expresses that she’s not coping as she already has children at home the the number of siblings is relevant.'

This justification for including detail of pregnancy history in the records of one or more of her children is nonsensical.

She is the patient.

Al1Langdownthecleghole · 17/09/2020 12:45

FlorenceNightshade apologies, I am not clear, could I check please if when you say "in my country" are you referring to a country outside of the UK?

The issues affect women worldwide, but in the context of this specific story about alcohol, NICE guidelines only apply to England and Wales - although Scotland and NI also tend to follow them closely.

Regarding the integration of maternal notes into child health records, is anyone able to clarify if this is the current situation within the countries of the UK? If so I am very much in favour of shouting from the rooftops about it.

Thanks.

NiceGerbil · 17/09/2020 12:47

'Part of it is arse covering by the professionals. If you read significant case reviews where children have died due to parental actions or neglect then they always examine maternity records. Did mum attend appointments?'

This is not about maternity records! It is about information about the mother like previous pregnancies being recorded on the child's medical records as part of the first entry when they are opened.

Hardbackwriter · 17/09/2020 12:49

I really, honestly can't imagine a situation where the fact I had three miscarriages before him was medically relevant to DS. I do think it's quite weird they included that in the birth record for his notes but not, for instance, the fact I took aspirin and progesterone while pregnant with him, which I can see the relevance of. Personally I'm not that concerned if he can see that information, but I can see why other women would very much be and I think they have a right to privacy.

NiceGerbil · 17/09/2020 12:51

'@BehindtheBump it might be mentioned if it became relevant.'

It doesn't work like that. Things are recorded on records or they aren't.

Unless you're saying that something happens down the line after the child is born, and the mothers records are opened and info dumped into the computerised shared notes of the child?

NiceGerbil · 17/09/2020 12:54

'hello doc I'm not coping with all the children'

'oh dear. Hold on while I look up the records of one of your children to find out how many children you have'

Vs real life

'hello doc I'm not coping with all the children'

'oh dear. How many children do you have?'

And etc

Clymene · 17/09/2020 12:58

Yes exactly @NiceGerbil. If I go to the GP and say I'm like the old woman in the shoe, why would she then look at my child's record?

NiceGerbil · 17/09/2020 13:02

I've just checked both my red books and nothing called birth record in either of them. So have no idea what they look like etc

Did get to reminisce over the notes I'd filled in when they were babies Grin

RUOKHon · 17/09/2020 13:02

Much easier to try to control women's behaviour than tackle male violence I suppose

‘Twas ever thus.

Hardbackwriter · 17/09/2020 13:03

hello doc I'm not coping with all the children'
'oh dear. Hold on while I look up the records of one of your children to find out how many children you have'

Make sure you pick the record of the youngest one!

FlorenceNightshade · 17/09/2020 13:08

@NiceGerbil “cases “ is how families are referred to in my area. It’s not as in criminal case but I can see how the vocabulary used by professionals can jar with people not used to it.

@Al1Langdownthecleghole I’m uk based (scotland).

I think what I’m trying to explain (badly) is that the parents circumstances- health and social become the babies history once it’s born. Information deemed relevant (by the professionals involved) can be taken from maternity notes and used in assessments/referrals/discussions around the child. But only if there are concerns would detailed information be required. It’s usually just a short summary, a copy of which goes in mums notes too and may be found in your red book (if you have one)

Child protection gives professionals a lot of access to information (rightly or wrongly) and this information can be shared without parental permission. Most professionals would tell a parent if information was being shared but sometimes that’s considered a safety risk too.

Separating mother from baby in the context of medical notes and history is a complicated issue that given the reactions on here it seems many were unaware how data captured is then used. I suggest as others have said contacting your local trusts for more information.

There is a caveat in my trust that when accessing notes certain information may be redacted and we may not tell you if parts are missing. One would like to think that information like this would fall in to that category but......we live in the real world

NiceGerbil · 17/09/2020 13:16

We're talking about the child's standard medical records. That are electronically recorded and these days shared across the NHS. And are the info that you get when you put in a request to see what info is held about you by the NHS.

NiceGerbil · 17/09/2020 13:18

If there is an issue with the child or the family the people looking at it would surely have access to the mothers and fathers notes.

Why does it need to be on the child's permanent electronic records in those circs?

FlorenceNightshade · 17/09/2020 13:22

@NiceGerbil

If there is an issue with the child or the family the people looking at it would surely have access to the mothers and fathers notes.

Why does it need to be on the child's permanent electronic records in those circs?

@NiceGerbil from a safeguarding point of view that just wouldn’t work. Concerns about a child’s health or safety are usually logged with HV to ensure that all professionals are then aware of the concern in future.
hopefulhalf · 17/09/2020 13:35

Nice Gerbil I work with looked after children and in child protection. I absolutely can't acsess parent's medical records, nor should I be able to. Only the GP has acsess to all the records.

NiceGerbil · 17/09/2020 14:02

I am talking about the GP records.

There seems to be a lot of cross purpose stuff here.

What we want to know is. Is it true that any information from a woman's past or present, including stuff like alcohol consumption, past mental health history, history of DV, past pregnancies detail which are collected from the woman during pregnancy, can be and are recorded on the opening notes of the baby when it is born. Then forming part of their standard shared notes across the NHS. That the child can read at 16.

This isn't about treatments, interventions or situations that arise after the child is born. It's about the notes taken by the HCPs who come in contact with a pregnant woman being put in her notes and also in the notes of the child as a starting point when it is born.

NiceGerbil · 17/09/2020 14:05

'Nice Gerbil I work with looked after children and in child protection. I absolutely can't acsess parent's medical records, nor should I be able to. Only the GP has acsess to all the records.'

This is also not a good reason to lift and dump data classed as sensitive in the child/rens electronic shared notes.

Saying oh nor should I be able to in a sniffy way (data protection) is a bit rich when that is essentially being used as an excuse to copy notes from one person and put them in someone else's notes, with consent little or rarely sought from what I can see.

None of us had any idea that happened and there is NO info on line whatsoever.

NiceGerbil · 17/09/2020 18:26

Seems this thread has died but given that this is a huge deal that women are apparently unaware of, not surprisingly as you'd never imagine that this type of highly sensitive personal data would be available to your child, I'd be interested to see if anyone wants to help finding out about this more.

I'm in an industry where sensitive personal data is bread and butter and we don't make a change without checking with the data protection expert.

And here we have an org that is taking some of the most personal data you can imagine and handing it over to her children. With apparently zero consideration as to what consequences that may have in the real world. I find it unbelievable that this could happen.

oldmapie · 18/09/2020 07:33

I'm utterly shocked at what I have read on here. I cannot understand why so much confidential information on the mother is put in her child's medical record. To me this is a huge breach in confidentiality, and trust which could have a massive negative impact on maternal and child health.
I also want to know why it's a safe guarding flag if a woman doesn't want any medical intervention during pregnancy...surely that's her right? If we start giving a foetus rights over the body it is sharing that is absolutely terrifying.
NiceGerbil and others thank you for raising this. I can't understand why this isn't in the public domain.

Gurufloof · 18/09/2020 09:01

NiceGerbil
Yep, I'm frankly livid about this, and really want to know more.
It doesn't even effect me, my kids were born well before it started. But for other women from when it started to now I'm livid on their behalf.
Will do what I can.