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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BMA votes for gender recognition via witness statement, to receive healthcare in services aligned to their identity and under 18s to access healthcare based on consent

72 replies

stumbledin · 15/09/2020 18:24

on Tuesday doctors supported a motion at the BMA’s annual general meeting which called on the Government to allow transgender and non-binary individuals to gain legal recognition of their gender by a witnessed sworn statement. ...

The BMA motion also affirmed the www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/17/action-aid-embroiled-trans-row-declaring-no-thing-biological/ right of transgender and non-binary individuals to access healthcare and “live their lives with dignity” including having their identity respected.
Two clauses of the motion - which called on the Government to support the witnessed sworn statement model and to ensure under-18s are able to access healthcare in “line with existing principles of consent” - were both passed by narrow margins.

The motion also called for trans people to be able to receive healthcare in settings appropriate to their gender identity and ensure trans healthcare workers were able to access facilities appropriate to the gender they identify as.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/09/15/trans-people-should-free-change-gender-without-medical-diagnosis/

OP posts:
merrymouse · 17/09/2020 05:58

No lesbian sex offender has left her victim pregnant because her biology does not allow it

Yes. It’s shocking that this doesn’t seem to occur to the BMA.

StonedRoses · 17/09/2020 07:03

On the BMA Twitter there are a lot of well made points arguing against this. And if course most of them are simply shouted down

This was an unusual ARM because of the pandemic. One day virtual only instead of the usual three. It was supposed to debate urgent issues only. We are in the middle of a global pandemic. Doctors have died, waiting list soared. Work load has increased along with staffing shortages. There is the case of Dr Bawa Garba Over the last ten years Drs (and others of course) have had a real terms pay cut 30%. An unfair an illogical pension tax means extra work can be taxed at over 100%
Yet this was deemed important enough to debate and has made the headlines

merrymouse · 17/09/2020 07:19

Yet this was deemed important enough to debate and has made the headlines

If one of their arguments was ‘why aren’t women more afraid of lesbians’, I’d say debate is pushing it.

It actually raises worrying questions about their competence.

ClosetGC · 17/09/2020 07:29

Three (of many) things that consistently bug me about stuff like this:

  1. Something that is never addressed is the question of why there is any need for legal recognition of anyone's gender in the first place. For sex, the reasons should be clear. But gender? Given that there's nothing (apart from humanity) common to everyone who "identifies" as a particular gender, why is this a label that needs any kind of legal recognition at all?
  1. In fact, a woman who identifies as "feminine" will likely face very different societal problems from a man who identifies the same way, and both should be recognised and addressed. So removing the need for any legal distinction actually seems pretty unhelpful to transwomen. If they do indeed suffer discrimination specifically as a result of their transgenderism, then their transgenderism is the relevant thing, not their "gender".
  1. What on earth is a "healthcare setting appropriate to one's gender identity"? Again, there is nothing common to everyone with a specific "gender identity", and the "gender they identify as" has nothing to do with the sex that they are. So this makes absolutely no sense — particularly in a healthcare setting.
highame · 17/09/2020 07:59

www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-the-bma-afraid-of-the-word-sex-

Article from Debbie Hayton

It rally is time for the government to do something. They're a lazy bunch who are going to do the same as Labour and just sit and wait whilst women as a sex disappear down the bloody drain

highame · 17/09/2020 08:00

rally??? sounds rather posh really is what I meant

merrymouse · 17/09/2020 08:12

Again, there is nothing common to everyone with a specific "gender identity

Particularly if all gender identities are valid.

How does a health care provider deal with a male who does not identify as male but presents as male? How do they weigh their needs against the needs of other service users?

I’m sure that doctors need guidance on this issue, but if the BMA are passing motions based on dodgy surveys and arguments you would expect from a 12 year old they are letting down their members.

DaisiesandButtercups · 17/09/2020 08:22

A list of some reasons I am not afraid of lesbians in female only spaces:

I have never felt sexually harassed or threatened by a lesbian ever in my life. I cannot count the number of times I have felt and been sexually harassed or threatened or intimidated by men starting from childhood.

If a lesbian were ever to try anything on then we are more likely to be evenly matched in size and strength than is the case with a man.

As previously mentioned a lesbian cannot impregnate me and is very much less likely to infect me with any STIs than a man.

Does anyone have any stats on actual born women sexually assaulting other women, previously unknown to them in toilets or changing rooms? It must be vanishingly small.

This BMA thing is horrifying.

We desperately need a return to single sex wards for the safety and well-being of women.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 17/09/2020 12:16

It seems to be quite clear which side this country's medical practitioners are taking here. And it's not that of women. Which does kind of beg larger questions, such as why women's medical care is woefully inadequate in some cases (I'm thinking particularly of the horror stories associated with maternity care), a still-unacceptable rate of stillbirth, women having to fight to get their endometriosis diagnosed, women being told they can't be sterilised in case their husbands disapprove, women complaining of serious symptoms and being sent away with anti-depressants, I could go on ad nauseum.

The wonderful Jess Taylor on Twitter has lately been posting interesting points about how women and our medical concerns are so often brushed aside and ignored as a result of what's clearly a system imbued with institutional misogyny.

Coupled with the further horrible, exhausting, relentless attacks on JKR I don't think I could feel any lower about this issue than I do today. As for the screw-up the Tories are making of the CV19 situation, I will still vote for them for only the second time in my life, and that does stick in the craw as I'm far from a natural supporter. But I now feel strongly enough about this that it's turned me into a single issue voter.

What about the rights, dignity and care of women?

BaronessWrongCrowd · 17/09/2020 12:19

@DaisiesandButtercups

A list of some reasons I am not afraid of lesbians in female only spaces:

I have never felt sexually harassed or threatened by a lesbian ever in my life. I cannot count the number of times I have felt and been sexually harassed or threatened or intimidated by men starting from childhood.

If a lesbian were ever to try anything on then we are more likely to be evenly matched in size and strength than is the case with a man.

As previously mentioned a lesbian cannot impregnate me and is very much less likely to infect me with any STIs than a man.

Does anyone have any stats on actual born women sexually assaulting other women, previously unknown to them in toilets or changing rooms? It must be vanishingly small.

This BMA thing is horrifying.

We desperately need a return to single sex wards for the safety and well-being of women.

This.
OvaHere · 17/09/2020 12:38

I don't even know where to begin with this. It's just ideological capture with zero thought to very real outcomes. Just shocking.

I don't think the medical profession (as a whole) have ever been on the side of women. It's just they are now going to quite extreme lengths to make that very clear.

BatShite · 18/09/2020 00:44

Surely doctors should know the difference between sex and gender more than most..this is..not good news, at all. Quite concerning, tbh.

EyesOpening · 18/09/2020 09:16

How can they justify not having single sex wards

www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-sexual-assault-patients-mental-health-mixed-sex-wards-a9273656.html

SerenityNowwwww · 18/09/2020 09:22

I wonder who exactly voted for this - who was asked? Was the vote open and clear? How was it worded? Who proposed this? Whats their agenda?

gardenbird48 · 18/09/2020 09:42

What on earth is a "healthcare setting appropriate to one's gender identity"? Again, there is nothing common to everyone with a specific "gender identity", and the "gender they identify as" has nothing to do with the sex that they are. So this makes absolutely no sense — particularly in a healthcare setting.

Indeed Closet - no one seems to be questioning the apparent contradiction between someone identifying as one of the 371 gender identities (source www.myumbrella.org.uk) (or 100 as mentioned on the BBC) and being able to choose the facilities appropriate to their gender - the only option available in medical terms is male or female. If someone is identifying as tetrisgender for example, how do they choose between the 'male' and 'female' facilities offered?

Are the BMA proposing that available facility categories be extended to cover all 371 genders, or does that person have to ignore their true identity and just pick an arbitrary option where, in the absence of any other determinants, they may as well pick the option most in line with their medical requirements which would be the one indicated by their birth sex?

SerenityNowwwww · 18/09/2020 12:35

Hang on - less than 1% of members voted? We’re they not told?

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MichelleofzeResistance · 18/09/2020 12:45

Everyone check where your towel is. Grin

How can they justify not having single sex wards?

They can't. Which is why they never engage with discussion or any points anyone makes, and just keep repeating the slogans. If they tried to unpack it it would fall apart in seconds, because the argument boils down to two plain truths.

  1. We believe in single sex wards for safety, dignity, privacy and patient wellbeing (see huge amounts of research, evidence, policy, years of expense and work to do this) and this must always be adhered to. Except if a male person wants to be in female provision.

  2. That single male patient's wish to be placed in a bed among females is to be regarded as more important and their wishes to be prioritised over all the female patients it will affect. This is to happen regardless of those female patients' safety, privacy, dignity and patient wellbeing, including if some of those patients are then forced to discharge themselves as unable to be undressed and vulnerable in a mixed sex space.

NicholasTopliss · 25/09/2020 06:14

If you read the wording of the proposal it is a bit strange. I have got a link somewhere.

NicholasTopliss · 25/09/2020 06:17

www.bma.org.uk/media/2939/arm-1-agenda-2020-final.pdf

It is on page 8.

NicholasTopliss · 25/09/2020 06:21

This is C&P from the document:

"Motionby MANCHESTER & SALFORD DIVISION: Following the government leaks to the Sunday Times, this meeting asks the BMA to oppose changes to the Equality Act designed to further exclude transgender and non-binary people from gendered spaces such as public toilets, oppose additional restrictions on healthcare for transgender young people, and lobby for progressive reform of the Gender Recognition Act".

As far as I know, there were no proposed changes to the equality act as described in this quote.

CaraDuneRedux · 25/09/2020 11:14

@NicholasTopliss

This is C&P from the document:

"Motionby MANCHESTER & SALFORD DIVISION: Following the government leaks to the Sunday Times, this meeting asks the BMA to oppose changes to the Equality Act designed to further exclude transgender and non-binary people from gendered spaces such as public toilets, oppose additional restrictions on healthcare for transgender young people, and lobby for progressive reform of the Gender Recognition Act".

As far as I know, there were no proposed changes to the equality act as described in this quote.

Any union official worth their salt should throw this motion out on a technicality, namely that you can't oppose something that isn't happening.
OhWhyDoIBother · 27/09/2020 19:14

Name changed

Response from the BMA re the vote. My email focused solely on the impact on female patients/treatment to gender dysphoric presenting children.

Utterly useless. Not good enough BMA.

Thank you for your email regarding the motion passed by the British Medical Association’s representative body in relation to healthcare for trans and non-binary people.

We appreciate that this is a sensitive and complex issue, and one on which our members and the public hold a range of views. However, after a considered debate of the issue at our ARM (annual representatives meeting), where diverse and opposing viewpoints were heard, the representative body voted to back the motion.

The vote affirms the BMA’s support for transgender and nonbinary individuals’ equal rights to live their lives with dignity which includes the right to equal access to healthcare. We oppose discrimination of all kinds and are committed to ensuring universal access to healthcare for all on the basis of clinical need.

We recognise and support the Equality Act provisions in regard to the provision of single sex spaces and services where this is deemed objectively justified in law, as set out and in line with the Equality Act 2010** and in the explanatory notes to that Act. We will take forward our work in line with all relevant legislation.

The motion does not propose changing or removing existing rights of patients to request same sex doctors or to refuse to be treated by an individual doctor. The BMA believes that all staff, and all patients, are entitled to be treated with dignity and respect.

The motion passed by the representative body is a statement of the Association’s position as a trade union and professional body for doctors. The BMA is not a legislative ore regulatory body: the passing of this motion therefore does not make any change to existing law or NHS guidance. Rather, the vote affirms that the BMA’s own policy position is to support transgender and nonbinary individuals’ equal rights to live their lives with dignity, which includes the right to equal access to healthcare.

The BMA defines gender as “socially constructed characteristics, often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, that are largely culturally determined and often assigned by sex at birth”. ‘Gender identity’ is defined as ‘the way in which an individual identifies with a gender category’. These definitions are in line with the definitions used by the Equality and Human Rights Commission and with the UK Government.

The BMA is clear that the safety of all patients and healthcare workers is critical. Risk assessments are the responsibility of individual NHS organisations. Localised risk assessments are undertaken dependent on the complexity and presentation of the patient and other patients in the care environment to ensure patient safety and that reasonable adjustments are made.

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