News from the Changing Room

[FairytaleofBykerGrove]

Just a bit of good news. A lot of you gave me great advice earlier in the year when my daughter was told there would be a male pupil who ‘is a girl’ in her communal changing room for swimming, just before lockdown.

Today I had a long meeting with the head teacher who listened patiently to all my concerns, wrote them down and then asked me if I would contribute to a school policy, to think about what it should include and to get back to her. She said she will bring in someone with an opposing view and see if we can find middle ground.

She also said I mentioned things regarding swimming that she hadn’t considered, and that it seemed likely that a new arrangement would have to be made. Overall I feel it was a very positive meeting. So thanks again to all who contributed and helped me clarify my thoughts on the matter.

Just keep saying safeguarding. It's not about opposing points of view or differing ideologies, it's about safeguarding.

Schools have to think long-term. Today it might be one boy who everyone sees as gentle, polite and harmless etc etc, but it sets a precedent, doesn't it?

What about the next boy? What about the sneaky spy-camera wielding boy who posts video taken in the girls' changing room online? What about the next classful of boys barging in to change with the girls bc "We're all identifying as girls today, Miss, and you let him in so now you can't stop us!"

The ultimate question is "Can you imagine the headlines you'll be reading about the school and the TV and radio interviews you'll be doing to try to limit the damage if this decision opens the door?"

Yes, it’s not about the ones you know, it’s all who are to come and it doesn’t matter if all the girls now say it’s ok, they can’t speak for all the girls to come

Three more questions for your headteacher, OP.

1. What exactly is the 'middle ground' she hopes to find between letting the child in and keeping him out? The child can't change in the doorway, it had to be one or the other!

1. How can she be leading a school with a trans child coming on roll and NOT know about Mermaids - what has she been doing to prepare herself and her staff?

1. What are the objections to letting the child change with the boys - isn't it really the boys who need to be educated and prepared to welcome this child and make them feel comfortable?

Brilliant, Fairy, well done. That sounds really positive. Good luck for the meeting, and I would go prepared with stats on changing rooms, useful short pithy quotes, bullet pointed so you can access them easily.

I have a feeling schools are a bit hamstrung UNLESS parents speak up, though, so you are doing a fantastic job raising the issue.

The problem is that in Ireland gender is protected in the Equality Act, sex isn't. So there is a possibility that if the "opposing side" threaten legal action then the school will cave.
The Irish government really sold women down the swanee when they changed the Equality Act. But its not the first time women have been sidelined in Ireland. There is a long history of misogyny, and unfortunately it doesn't seem to matter what party is in power.

What is the safeguarding policy for schools in Ireland?
If anything happened to a girl as a result of this, would there be a case for suing? On the grounds of not keeping her safe?

I wish the school insurance companies would step up and say if they will pay out, if a parent takes the school to court, in case of an incident or due to religious discrimination. After all, many religions do not permits girls and boys to mix under those circumstances.

Congratulations OP. Make sure you have the correct crime and suicide statistics. Without a doubt the driving people to suicide lies will be rolled out. No thought will be given to the mental well-being of the young girls in the class.

If they use the ‘there have been no difficulties in Ireland because of sharing spaces with those not female’ point out that there is actually no way of knowing that, as male bodied people that identify as trans are being recorded as women.

Does the law in Ireland also cover children that identify as trans, because children are not actually legally recognised as trans in the U.K.

At the moment, children in Ireland can only legally self-ID from the age of 16 with parental permission and from 18 without parental permission. However there is a push for an imminent change to allow children under the age of 16 to self ID. This is on the current program for government.

This will have a huge impact on schools if it goes through. No one is talking about it.

static.rasset.ie/documents/news/2020/06/draft-programme-for-govt.pdf

I don't think children are legally recognised as trans in Ireland. So hopefully safeguarding will be prioritised over the Equality Act.

Sorry OP. Crossed posts.

[quote FairytaleofBykerGrove]At the moment, children in Ireland can only legally self-ID from the age of 16 with parental permission and from 18 without parental permission. However there is a push for an imminent change to allow children under the age of 16 to self ID. This is on the current program for government.

This will have a huge impact on schools if it goes through. No one is talking about it.

static.rasset.ie/documents/news/2020/06/draft-programme-for-govt.pdf[/quote]
There is a deafening silence from the media on this. The vast majority of the people in Ireland are oblivious to it, and to its implications for women and children.

Brilliant job OP, your principal sounds like she has an open mind.
Have you seen the other thread yet called "social critique from Ireland...." there's a section near the end you may be interested in especially
; that girls should not believe the evidence of their own eyes; that girls should put male feelings and demands over their own feelings, privacy and safety; and that girls are not allowed to have boundaries with the opposite sex.

Also, wanted to mention Teni have a 3 year strategic plan which includes aiming to get gender identity and gender variance included in the curriculum, which is interesting to note, so I would think that people will become more aware of this in the coming years. Currently most of the country is unaware we have self id. I hope any change to the curriculum will be fair and evidence based, with input from all sides.

Excellent start op!

Someone asked what the HT had not considered.

1. the effect on children currently experiencing abuse
2. the potential risk to any transgender female child in the boys changing room (seriously!)
3. that the separation of boys and girls enabled accessibility
4. that some families may have religious objections
5. that separating children into boys and girls was sometimes necessary and sometimes unnecessary.

There's a girls' school in my Irish rather rural home town, which I can tell just by the uniform that they are strictly Catholic. The girls all wear skirts almost halfway down the calves and all look very frumpy. I honestly cannot imagine how a strictly Catholic co-ed school would deal with this. It is insane. I have the feeling that around here nobody has the least idea what is going on.

It must be the most unwoke, backwards town in the whole of Ireland! The retired ladies would fall over in shock if a transwoman entered our shared changing room for aqua gymnastics and insisted on stripping naked with us. They are all a bit hiding behind towels anyway -- except one lady, who is Austrian and I supposed used to showing naked with other women.
It is simply not a law that would gain popularity in Ireland if it were actually made public. It's so sneaky, to have introduced it.

It must be the most unwoke, backwards town in the whole of Ireland!

It would be ‘backwards’ if it prioritised none females over the rights of young girls and women.

I think most people would be horrified. The government must have known this too, hence the low key manner in which it was done.

They are all a bit hiding behind towels anyway -- except one lady, who is Austrian and I supposed used to showing naked with other women.

Ha, not at my gym, there's an older Irish lady who brings a suitcase, and hangs around in her pants chatting to whoever else is there. Somehow, always sitting right in front of the locker I chose (NO MATTER WHICH ONE I CHOOSE!!!!)

My DS1 is 10, and has to go and change alone in the mens now - which he does find tricky and uncomfortable as he's got co-ordination issues (and I usually have to send him back to look for whatever he's left behind), it's crazy that we have to do that, yet they're actually suggesting any bloke who feels like it can wander in instead. I'm certain my gym would allow it too, despite there being no cubicles upstairs in the adult's bit, and only 2 downstairs where kids/families with a female parent change, and no cubicles at all in the mens according to DP/DS

Well done OP.

There isn't middle ground here. It's separating the one child's needs out from the girls' needs and dealing with them as two separate things, as they are.

The one male child does not wish to change with the boys. Absolutely fine. The child's identity and preference can absolutely be respected, facilities can be provided, this can be done in ways that ensure privacy, dignity, respect for this child's feelings and choices.

The male child cannot insist on being permitted to change with the girls, because this cannot be done without infringing on the girls' privacy, dignity and respect for their feelings. There is no other way to put it but that this would be making use of the girls - regardless of impact on them, because this does not look at their individual and collective rights and needs - to confirm and support the male child's identity.

Support the male child - yes absolutely, and this can and should be done. No child should ever be asked to undress in a situation where they do not feel safe, or that others are present in ways that make them feel loss of privacy and dignity. This just applies equally to female children.

Moving female children (excluding) out of female provision in order to enable someone male to use it, is not an acceptable solution, it's sexist, it ends the female facilities doing what they are intended to do which is meet all female needs, and it punishes and shames girls for having barriers like faith, culture, disability, trauma, boundaries, a sense of privacy. It also pressures girls to put up and shut up to avoid that shaming and exclusion, and may subject those girls to division and questioning of who can stay and who can't, which also involves the male child (I don't know how the child prefers to identify themselves, so this is factual rather than disrespectful) in a way that pressures them. It's divisive, it's unhelpful, it's causing bad feeling where there does not need to be any, and no child benefits from it.

The messages here: there is nothing wrong with identifying as trans, and children who do are respected and supported. Safeguarding is taken very seriously, as is child wellbeing, so no child will ever be asked to undress in a situation where they do not feel safe, or that the presence of others affects their privacy and dignity. This does include girls. It is not possible to change sex, and changing rooms must remain sex based. However alternative private facilities will always be offered in addition where a child would like this.

Well done! Definitely ask who the person with opposing views is before you meet. Might be worth having someone with you as back up?

@MichelleofzeResistance

Well done OP.

There isn't middle ground here. It's separating the one child's needs out from the girls' needs and dealing with them as two separate things, as they are.

The one male child does not wish to change with the boys. Absolutely fine. The child's identity and preference can absolutely be respected, facilities can be provided, this can be done in ways that ensure privacy, dignity, respect for this child's feelings and choices.

The male child cannot insist on being permitted to change with the girls, because this cannot be done without infringing on the girls' privacy, dignity and respect for their feelings. There is no other way to put it but that this would be making use of the girls - regardless of impact on them, because this does not look at their individual and collective rights and needs - to confirm and support the male child's identity.

Support the male child - yes absolutely, and this can and should be done. No child should ever be asked to undress in a situation where they do not feel safe, or that others are present in ways that make them feel loss of privacy and dignity. This just applies equally to female children.

Moving female children (excluding) out of female provision in order to enable someone male to use it, is not an acceptable solution, it's sexist, it ends the female facilities doing what they are intended to do which is meet all female needs, and it punishes and shames girls for having barriers like faith, culture, disability, trauma, boundaries, a sense of privacy. It also pressures girls to put up and shut up to avoid that shaming and exclusion, and may subject those girls to division and questioning of who can stay and who can't, which also involves the male child (I don't know how the child prefers to identify themselves, so this is factual rather than disrespectful) in a way that pressures them. It's divisive, it's unhelpful, it's causing bad feeling where there does not need to be any, and no child benefits from it.

The messages here: there is nothing wrong with identifying as trans, and children who do are respected and supported. Safeguarding is taken very seriously, as is child wellbeing, so no child will ever be asked to undress in a situation where they do not feel safe, or that the presence of others affects their privacy and dignity. This does include girls. It is not possible to change sex, and changing rooms must remain sex based. However alternative private facilities will always be offered in addition where a child would like this.

Excellent post MichelleoftheResistance.

Well done and thank-you for coming back and updating us