Incels on the rise?

[WildAboutMyPlanet]

Laura Bates of everyday sexism has just released a new book which I am thinking or reading but I’m worried that reading it will depress me. It’s all about the ‘Manosphere’ and ‘Incels’.

I was reading a piece she wrote relating to it and I’m really concerned that she says there are ‘tens of thousands’ of men involved in this.

Is it really that bad? I thought these types were a very, very small minority, a few thousand maybe, but she seems to be suggesting they are on the rise. I find it very frightening that so many men feel this way about women and that they are so extreme and promoting murder and suggesting rape tips. Are we going backwards or am I just being naive and this is just yesterday’s sexism with a new name?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/books/laura-bates-men-who-hate-women-ending-manosphere-ideology-a4539346.html%3famp

Without knowing much about her method, I'm not inclined to Laura Bates grasp of numbers. Her schtick in her Guardian column was to think of something that seemed sexist to her, put it in her Everyday sexism Twitter or sm and ask her followers to respond with their own examples and then write a column based on the Tweets about how this issue was an example of common Everyday Sexism - sometimes she'd even claim the particular behaviour was on the rise.

As for incels - I think originally they were a small group that was pretty marginalised, largely men with some significant mental health issues. The press coverage has increased interest and their numbers significantly IMO. There are probably also other things driving it - in a lot of ways incels are like young men who are radicalised in other settings throughout the world. They usually don't have much hope of bettering their situation, of a family life, maybe not much hope of a good job or getting out through education. Overall people are having less sex, they are isolated by social changes in communities, the internet, pornography changes their sexual response. Those kinds of conditions are increasing in many western nations.

Should say, "I am not inclined to trust her grasp of numbers"

What are incels?

incel = involuntary celibate
Basically, men who aren't successful with the opposite sex and blame it on women and feminism.

They feel they have a right to have sex with a woman and that women don’t have the right to be fussy about who they sleep with.

She's not just talking about incels though. She is talking about men, oridinary seeming, every day, polite to your face men who also post on boards specifically set up to hate women, discuss and even encourage/plan attacks on women.

She was on Jeremy Vine earlier in the week, I posted about it at the time. She 'infiltrated' a lot of online stuff, went to meetings - yes, some men have meetings where they go specifically to discuss how to hate women more effectively!

I'm pondering buying the book...

How can Laura even talk about sexism when she doesn't recognise sex
Laura uses gender to define men and women.
She also ignores that TRAs engage in all the same offensive behaviours

To be fair, she's not a gender critical writer. It's not her area of research/interest. She does what she does.

She doesn't have to be everything to you everybody to have a valid point.

Its not just the number of incels that is alarming; its also that the ideas and language of the incel and MRA movement are spreading into mainstream men's culture.

If you've spent any time on Reddit, you will have seen a range; from men who think its all just a huge joke through to men who hate women in general and feminists in particular. I've seen men who suddenly realise they have been socialising with violent extremists, and I've seen men posting violent images including murdered women.

New Study Reports 50% of Gen Z Men Think Feminism Has “Gone Too Far”

The UK-based advocacy group HOPE not hate recently released a July 2020 report detailing the attitudes and actions of 16 to 24 year-olds in the age of COVID-19. This study, titled Fear and Hope, studied over 2,000 Generation Z individuals to determine their attitudes about domestic and global politics. The study found that approximately 50 percent of Gen Z men feel that feminism has “gone too far.”

The study revealed that just 21 percent of young male respondents view feminism favorably. Conversely, nearly one in five young men maintain negative views about feminism, and just 39% of young men think that “it is a more dangerous time to be a woman than a man in Britain today.” A larger portion of respondents felt that feminism “makes it harder for men to succeed”.

The report draws attention to the ways in which many of these attitudes are particularly present in the group of individuals deemed “reactionary conservatives.”
feminist.org/news/new-study-reports-50-of-gen-z-men-think-feminism-has-gone-too-far/

She doesn't have to be everything to you everybody to have a valid point.

I agree with this, but I think it's a significant blind spot that she ignores the misogyny of TRAs.

Angela Nagle covered this as part of 'Kill All Normies' in 2017. Things have only got worse since then.

She doesn't have to be gender critical but it is crucial to recognise sex based differences and she ignores rape and death threats made by TRAs

Does she? I thought it was more she focussed on men and how they are radicalising boys online, talking in chatrooms and in real life about how best to punish women.

Surely that's enough for one woman to research and write about?

I don't understand the urge to negate what she has done by pointing out that she has not done something she didn't set out to do!

I caught part of her Woman's Hour interview this week to promote the new book. If reliable her evidence was quite worrying...

I might listen to her WH interview before buying the book, I Kind of want to read it but not sure how much if it’s going to be depressing.

I don’t know if it’s just being spoken about more, but it feels to me like there has been a shift, from sexist idiots who expect you to give them sex and cook their dinners, to dangerous men who will harass, rape and even murder you for not doing what they want or what they perceive they want...I know there have always been dangerous individuals around, but this ‘mansophere’ movement is very concerning...maybe it’s just more in my face

It would be surprising if there wasn’t an increase in violent misogyny among young men, given that they are the first generation to be raised in a sewer of extreme internet porn, portraying the strangling, battering and anal rape of women as “normal” mainstream sex. I think parents have been too slow to realise the vile influences their young sons have been exposed to, and too embarrassed to provide corrective sex education covering respect, consent and emotional commitment.

There is an interesting thread on AIBU at the moment....

Laura Bates on WH was pretty clear on most of the issues and spoke chillingly about how books are groomed from an early age into these male misogyny internet groups. It is frightening not only for the numbers ,but for the rage and anger and murderous intent they learn to see as normal man talk.

The thread on AIBU seems to have vanished ...shame as it spoke bout really difficult thing going on in school

To be fair, she's not a gender critical writer. It's not her area of research/interest.

Her area of interest, if the title of her book is anything to go by, is men who hate women.

That would include trans rights activists. How could she not have noticed that!

I agree Jane. Significant omission, and it means I no longer respect her work or take it particularly seriously. This idea that merely identifying as a "trans woman" makes a sub culture of young males who appear to me to not infrequently come from similar misogynistic online communities to the incels she's writing about, and have similar backgrounds, somehow different and less of a threat to women than the "incels" they originally hung out with before they "transitioned" is either spectacularly naive or she's deliberately avoiding the issue, which I can understand but don't respect her much for it. NATALT, for those who need a disclaimer.

She also ought to investigate self proclaimed male "feminists", for the other inexplicably missing chapter in that book of hers.

I heard the WH interview and it was certainly disturbing to hear some of these very misogynistic and self pitying views. A lot of frankly psychotic sounding stuff on the web. But as for the numbers involved I'm not all all sure? And this stuff is just talk or fantasy- one hopes. Whereas , if you wish to sexually humiliate men , you can just go to a CFNM party. Perhaps these sad ppl have similar events though?

So I googled CFNM obviously and it stands for Clothed Female Nude Male but I'm still non the wiser.

Anyone care to fill me in (tell me more, tell me more..)?

@JaneAustenWouldHateThis

So I googled CFNM obviously and it stands for Clothed Female Nude Male but I'm still non the wiser.

Anyone care to fill me in (tell me more, tell me more..)?

Ok I only heard of it recently myself tbh. One of my sons does nude modelling for hen nights and of course there is no work since the lockdown. But he heard this CFNM party stuff is still ongoing and there's money in it. Essentially women will pay to attend these events where naked men are ordered to masturbate ( but not orgasm) sit on dildos and what not. There are penalties and rewards etc. I could only find a Metro UK article about it. From what I recall actual intercourse is verboten * maybe some legal reason? It's more about humiliation really . I'm not suggesting there is a moral equivalence with the nastier incels. But it is rather creepy ? Anyway my son is not interested. For what its worth he never feels vulnerable at the hen dos. Those women are lovely and respectful. Some actually do nice drawing !

Google Metro CFNM.