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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dead Trans Girl's Sperm Will Be Stored

62 replies

Collidascope · 11/09/2020 07:13

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2901fea0-f3b5-11ea-aeed-ec95eac61729?shareToken=e475e57d5e0b12c1f4a19deb8fc0a46a

Oof. I feel for the mother, she must be distraught. I don't however think that gives her the right to try and bring a child into the world whose father is dead at the point of conception and who will be the product of this dead father and "a donor and a surrogate."

OP posts:
JaneAustenWouldHateThis · 12/09/2020 13:51

There are other aspects to this specific case i find concerning but they are not directly relevant to the wider implications of what the mother is proposing in legal and ethical debate so I will park it there.

I thought that your post was bang on. If you change your mind and want to talk about the "other aspects" then I would be very interested to read that too.

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2020 15:48

Jane I'd love to but i think we'd be into stuff that would be (and quite rightly should be) deleted unless this family become more prominent in the press and this case become more significant and important.

If Mama Anderson goes down that route it will open the family up to more scrutiny though. And tbh given the family is grieving and the circumstances are tragic I'm not sure thats in the interests of the family tbh. And any child that comes out of this will be born into this media interest. Thats something that should be taken into consideration before she goes down this route. It will not be a easy experience. It will mean the family and the mother are a centre of attention. Whether she will plough on regardless of the implications and thinking about the family as a whole, is another matter...

DeaconBoo · 12/09/2020 16:30

@Pacif1cDogwood

The trans thing IS a red herring here, but I think it is contributing to everybody involved being terrified at being seen to Do The Wrong Thing. It's wokeness gone mental.

I have not heard of any other grieving parent storing her dead child's gametes in the hopes of a further grandchild.

Well, I did actually post a story of a grieving parent being permitted to extract their dead son's gametes to create a grandchild, in an earlier post: www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-west-point-cadet-sperm-peter-zhu-20190305-story.html

They retrieved the sperm after he suffered a fatal accident. I don't think the decision has been made about actually using it, though?

"In 2018, the American Society for Reproductive Medicine issued ethical guidelines for fertility centers on posthumous collection of reproductive tissue. It said it’s justifiable if authorized in writing by the deceased. Otherwise, it said, programs should only consider requests from the surviving spouse or partner."

DeaconBoo · 12/09/2020 16:32

We start to get all sorts of ethical questions about who 'owns' the reproduction genetic material of a human after they die.

To me this is the key point, and I am shocked at some of the cases I've now read about (like in the article in my previous post).

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2020 16:35

@DeaconBoo

We start to get all sorts of ethical questions about who 'owns' the reproduction genetic material of a human after they die.

To me this is the key point, and I am shocked at some of the cases I've now read about (like in the article in my previous post).

Could your eggs be harvested from your body if you are not opted out of the donation programme, if you were on life support and there was a demand for eggs?
Auto · 12/09/2020 16:45

From what I've read, in UK surrogacy one or both of the intended parents must be genetically related (as a parent, not grandparent) to the child. Therefore this proposed arrangement would not be legal.

Toddlerteaplease · 12/09/2020 16:50

So wrong. The Diane Blood case was different. Her children at least had one parent alive and her husband wanted children. This child will have neither parent.

RedToothBrush · 12/09/2020 16:51

@Auto

From what I've read, in UK surrogacy one or both of the intended parents must be genetically related (as a parent, not grandparent) to the child. Therefore this proposed arrangement would not be legal.
At the moment but we have move to relax the rules on surrogacy in the uk.

Is there anything to prevent sperm being transported out of the country?

And there is still a possibility that a woman could still step into this situation to 'help' despite it being a bit of a minefield.

Pacif1cDogwood · 12/09/2020 21:29

RedToothBrush, thank you for your excellent analysis upthread re the issues of meaningful consent and the ethics of it all.

I completely agree there is more to this situation than meets the eye.
Transgender from the age of 3?? Half my boys wanted to be puppies at that age - does that make them transspecies?? Hmm

MichelleofzeResistance · 12/09/2020 22:11

Desperately sorry for this bereaved parent and family. RTB's post above makes a great deal of sense. Some things I thought as I was reading it:

Since there is a lot of current evidence as to how legal precedents often move beyond their original brief in unforeseen ways, there are many things that would have to be thoroughly considered from a number of angles. If for example it was established that there is a right to be a grandparent, and so a right to a child's stored genetic material to create this in the absence of direct consent being available from the child, this potentially opens the door to asking, in the case of an adult child not wishing to use their stored genetic material to have a child, might their parents also have a claim to the material to create a grandchild via surrogacy?

And in turn might there therefore be a right to take an adult child who does not wish to have children to court for that genetic material to be provided so that those wishing to be grandparents have equality in their opportunity to raise a child? And while currently something only done to protect the child's future choices where a child's medical needs create the situation, would this become something parents may choose to do outside of medical necessity as a precaution, to request storage of their child's genetic material to protect their future opportunity of being grandparents?

Really don't envy the legal team who will have to unpack this, and in the context of a bereaved and distressed family.

nhsnamechange · 12/09/2020 22:12

Good lord. I can't even imagine.

RedToothBrush · 13/09/2020 00:38

It starts getting messy quickly doesn't it?

None of this is about the well being of a child. A child doesn't get a choice and they become a commodity.

Its always about the third party who decides to 'commission' a baby via surrogacy or perhaps a sperm donation with 'special visitation arrangements ' (which i note dont exist in law in terms of grandparents visitation rights).

Identity is a funny old thing but there do seem to be universal needs that persist throughout the centuries. The idea of who we are and where we come from and our heritage is one which seems to be timeless. I dont think that adding genetic mother/birth mothers/multiple fathers etc is going to shake the desire to explore all parts of that despite what surrogate parents might hope.

We are now seeking to somehow undermine these foundations deliberately despite knowing how it can cause distress and uncertainty in adopted children (especially when the truth is withheld) even in loving adoptive families and where they have been adopted in circumstances which are beyond anyones control.

I really think we are undervaluing the importance of this inner need to know 'who we are' and the need to how 'foundation stones' of where we came from.

A child born long after their parent has died at such a young age is going to end up in a situation where their dead parent almost has 'mythical godlike angelic status' and they themselves will have almost a 'miracle status'. How do you ever live up to the shining star of your deceased parent you were created to feel the void of? I'm not too sure the wider family dynamics on that are particularly healthy either. (Imagine being a sibling or the child of another sibling where your grandmother / mother has fought for years to have the miracle child of her lost angel.. ).

I dunno. I cant help but think not enough is being considered here.

Children dont know any different than the circumstances they are born into, but it doesn't ultimately stop them being curious or asking questions to themselves and others about it either. They accept it because they have to, but it may become something that they struggle with in later life.

I do think we need to think very long and very hard about the safeguarding aspects that separating the idea of a birth mother from a genetic mother and adding additional fathers might create. I think we need to think about the psychological aspect of all this and how finding out youve been bought created in a different country with less rights sits with family dyamics and whether someone might still feel like they are missing an important part of their 'heritage' if removed from their birth mother even if they have no genetic link to them. Or being told your mother is your father and your father is your mother and how this affects your understanding of the wider world.

These are moral and ethical questions i really don't think are being asked hard enough. And thinking about throwing grandparents into the mix too?

Are we REALLY putting the welfare of children first?

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