Karen Ingala-Smith criticised for running female only women’s refuge

[Siablue]

Apparently there has been an article in Pink News attacking her work. For many women like me single sex provision is vital.

mobile.twitter.com/K_IngalaSmith/status/1303713363910971392

(which show that if you are trans you are 14 times more likely to commit murder that be murdered yourself).

Was that a typo? There are 62% more trans murderers than trans murder victims, not 14 times more! I went off to find that page on her site when I read that, I was wondering if she was counting trans-identified prisoners or something, but I can't find anything like that.

kareningalasmith.com/2019/10/17/comparing-uk-homicide-perpetration-and-suspect-rates-for-male-female-and-trans-people-april-2007-march-2018/

I've found out from the grapevine that friend of a friend is trying to find out if, as a trans woman, they are eligible to apply for a staff vacancy at Women's Aid. The website says WA support trans and non binary women, but the job spec doesn't mention them in a worker context.

I'm making no judgement about this yet, but keeping an ear open as to what happens...

If I hear any more I'll update.

There are ways to accommodate various needs. I worked somewhere in housing. We had a mainly male homeless hostel with a women's floor that welcomed trans women. Then a women's hostel that didn't. Everyone always safe, everyone had provision that suited them.

The issue with self ID is that a man (not a trans woman) can just turn up, say he's female and be in the women's shelter. No safe place.

TRAs will say men won't do this. They appear not to understand the extreme lengths predatory men will go to. Anyone who has worked with women knows just how far they will go. Or just the men's provision is full. Never mind, say you're a woman, bed and a hot meal.

@MrsTerryPratchett

There are ways to accommodate various needs. I worked somewhere in housing. We had a mainly male homeless hostel with a women's floor that welcomed trans women. Then a women's hostel that didn't. Everyone always safe, everyone had provision that suited them.

The issue with self ID is that a man (not a trans woman) can just turn up, say he's female and be in the women's shelter. No safe place.

TRAs will say men won't do this. They appear not to understand the extreme lengths predatory men will go to. Anyone who has worked with women knows just how far they will go. Or just the men's provision is full. Never mind, say you're a woman, bed and a hot meal.

that's all well and good but i just don't think it applies to refuges or sexual assault services because trauma is triggered by the subject's perceptions not the object's intentions.

A trans woman could be the nicest and most genuine ever to walk the earth and still trash the recovery of survivors by being in that place with a male body. Not nice, nobody's fault.

Absolutely! But I do think there's space in the provision for everyone if we fund properly.

No issue with single sex refuges as long as theres adequate provision for trans women and men who can also be victims

@endofthelinefinally but the issue is that outside of London there is no segregated provision. There's one refuge in my council area, 6 rooms. What do you suggest if a man needs help, they get sent away 50 miles?

No, just that if trans people want, and are happy to have one in London, surely they could campaign and fundraise for more elsewhere. Like women had to do.

@movingonup20

No issue with single sex refuges as long as theres adequate provision for trans women and men who can also be victims

The only reason there is provision for women is because of women.

Now it appears women are responsible for providing provision for men and trans women as well. Why?

I speak as someone who has worked most of my life in housing/services for men. I have never been asked why I worked in male services, or why there were male services.

I’m interested to know where this ‘women’s sector’ is?

I’ve heard of the ‘public sector’ and the ‘private sector’ but not ‘women’s sector’.

Does that mean there is a ‘mans sector’?

There are single sex provision that is staffed by women. But I’m assuming there may be men who work in that sector as well? Say as the cleaner or accountant or gardener?

Sorry completely of thread but that expression has bugged me!!!

‘No issue with single sex refuges as long as theres adequate provision for trans women and men who can also be victims.’

When I worked in housing men would go into temporary housing and then private rental through a bond scheme. This was based on what the majority of male clients had said they wanted. Just because women have set up refuges it doesn’t mean that is the best solution for men or trans women. It can feel a bit - women have something so everyone else must have access to it too, regardless of whether or not it would actually be the best solution for them.

‘There are single sex provision that is staffed by women. But I’m assuming there may be men who work in that sector as well? Say as the cleaner or accountant or gardener?’

Surely people referring to it as a women’s sector are talking about the client group not the employees.

'TRAs will say men won't do this. They appear not to understand the extreme lengths predatory men will go to'

There's a very good reason for this.

'When I worked in housing men would go into temporary housing and then private rental through a bond scheme. This was based on what the majority of male clients had said they wanted'

I have read as well that men's needs in escaping DV tend to be different to women's.

Women's refuges exist because women saw the need, raised funding and awareness, set them up.

Obviously there is a need for other groups as well. What are their needs? What do they want/ need? Who do they feel most comfy talking to?

Why aren't men's groups, groups for LGB+ looking into what is going on in the different groups that need assistance and what will help them most? I would think stonewall would be really well placed to do this. They are well known, trusted.

Women tend to flee with children with them. Their needs are very specific. To point people to services that may well not be right for them, or the other people using the service is not the best approach.

A huge thing in this is that the best approach would be to fight for men to be more accepting of other men. It's not just trans women who are at risk in certain circs. GNC men, men who are assumed to be gay, men who are disabled etc are all at higher risk of violence from men. Why is there no concern for them? This feels like a huge gap. That is something that many women would support as well, as violent men are a problem that is shared.

Do stonewall do research around the experience of LBGT+ in the criminal justice / prison service? And find where there are issues and agitate for reform? I honestly have no idea, does anyone else?

Loads of other issues as well they could assist with.

The fact that they don't seem interested at all in doing this sort of thing is really telling.

I'm going to have a look at their site and see their aims.

Ok this is interesting

The home page has 'resources and information for LGBT people'.

There are 6 things flagged on their front page. 5 are about the T and the other is a general fundraiser.

I selected 'near you' from the home page and put lesbian. I put in a few postcodes around where I live in London and also one in central London. I get one result. And one for an LGB+ theatre. In London.

Gay gives me one answer. The theatre. One!!!

Trans gives me the theatre and an NHS hosp.

Ok well.

That's fucking useless.

Stonewall. STONEWALL. have on their front page a look for support in your area search. And it is essentially empty.

I know that there is way more out there then that.

They're not even bothering to populate the database and keep it up to date for people who come to their site. For anyone. On their front page.

That shouts 'we aren't really interested' to me.

Delving further.

I would imagine men (and possibly trans women - depending on the evidence base) have a lower need for refuge services because they are at an enormously lower risk of death or serious injury from an intimate partner.

It goes without saying that nobody should be abused in their home and that all victims deserve support to leave the relationship and a place of safety. It may be easier for men to leave in a planned way, whereas women are at a severe risk of death at the point of leaving.

Of course men are also more likely to have the financial means to leave with eg a deposit scheme.

I have just seen this horrendous article about the dangers of allowing males into women’s shelters. It is horrific but unsurprising.

www.feministcurrent.com/2020/09/13/protecting-men-at-the-womens-shelter/

No criticism of Karen Ingala Smith from me. I've been a supporter of her work for years. Thank goddess at least one DV org is committed to upholding women's sex based rights under the Equality Act.