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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Nigella Lawson apologizes for 27 year old column

133 replies

Igneococcus · 10/09/2020 07:50

It reads like a hostage note:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/9272cff6-f2cd-11ea-9de6-a6e4d4016fb7?shareToken=f1646908d8ee981cca03f1ebbff8ec12

OP posts:
DeaconBoo · 10/09/2020 10:40

@CharlottesComplicatedWeb

I think people did say and do things, 25+ years ago which may be far removed to what they might say and do today. Opinions and knowledge have changed. We know better. We do better (or try to).
Absolutely. The portrayal of some sections of society was terrible. People deride the term 'woke' but I do think its use as 'being aware of and sensitive to political and societal injustices' is not a bad thing. Lots of women have feminist 'awakenings'!
donnadenise · 10/09/2020 10:42

The link no longer works, does anybody have one please?

oakleaffy · 10/09/2020 10:43

I can't see the article, either. Can someone please copy and paste it?

7Days · 10/09/2020 10:49

Theres nothing better about this Charlotte.

BovaryX · 10/09/2020 10:50

People deride the term 'woke' but I do think its use as 'being aware of and sensitive to political and societal injustices' is not a bad thing

Do you think it's 'progress' that women are having their sex segregated spaces colonised by an aggressive lobby group? Do you think it's acceptable that this lobby is promoting its agenda in schools? Do you think it's okay that there has been a 4,000 percent increase in young girls presenting for gender reassignment? Or that lesbians are told they are bigots if they try to exclude intact males from their social and dating circle? Do you think it's 'progress' that people who question any of the above are denounced, vilified, threatened, cancelled, sacked? I don't.

oakleaffy · 10/09/2020 10:50

Here is a photograph of the article.

I can't see that what Nigella said was 'wrong', really..What is there to apologise for? She stated her mind, that the person needed 'help' not radical surgery of non diseased body tissue.. It was a different era back then.

unmarkedbythat · 10/09/2020 10:53

People deride the term 'woke' because they do not understand, and are not motivated to learn, its origins and meaning and what it represents for some groups.

Anyway. If Nigella was free to state her opinion then, she is perfectly free to state now that her opinion has changed.

gardenbird48 · 10/09/2020 10:54

@CharlottesComplicatedWeb

I think people did say and do things, 25+ years ago which may be far removed to what they might say and do today. Opinions and knowledge have changed. We know better. We do better (or try to).
I'm interested to know which particular opinions and knowledge you are referring to and what do we know now that is better than 25 years ago?
AbsintheFriends · 10/09/2020 10:54

Nigella has built her brand on being pleasing to men. She is fiercely intelligent, but has chosen to model herself on a 1950s stereotype - coiffed, corseted, and in the kitchen (simpering.)

I'm still surprised and disappointed by this though. I thought she'd feel a bit of loyalty, solidarity and sisterhood with women too.

VinylDetective · 10/09/2020 10:55

@CharlottesComplicatedWeb

I think people did say and do things, 25+ years ago which may be far removed to what they might say and do today. Opinions and knowledge have changed. We know better. We do better (or try to).
Whether or not it’s better is a matter of opinion. I disagree that it is.
BovaryX · 10/09/2020 10:57

@unmarkedbythat

People deride the term 'woke' because they do not understand, and are not motivated to learn, its origins and meaning and what it represents for some groups.

Anyway. If Nigella was free to state her opinion then, she is perfectly free to state now that her opinion has changed.

No. People deride the term because it is associated with an increasingly intolerant, authoritarian movement which seeks to redefine the meaning of words, exert total control over the narrative, enforce submission to slogans and ideologies which are presented not as opinion but as a quasi religious orthodoxy. The threat this poses to freedom of speech, critical thinking, debate and the existence of external reality becomes more explicit every day.
PatriciaPerch · 10/09/2020 10:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DeaconBoo · 10/09/2020 10:59

@BovaryX

People deride the term 'woke' but I do think its use as 'being aware of and sensitive to political and societal injustices' is not a bad thing

Do you think it's 'progress' that women are having their sex segregated spaces colonised by an aggressive lobby group? Do you think it's acceptable that this lobby is promoting its agenda in schools? Do you think it's okay that there has been a 4,000 percent increase in young girls presenting for gender reassignment? Or that lesbians are told they are bigots if they try to exclude intact males from their social and dating circle? Do you think it's 'progress' that people who question any of the above are denounced, vilified, threatened, cancelled, sacked? I don't.

I mean.... I can't really tell your line of thinking from my sentence to all of this (or did you quote the wrong post?) but personally I would include these as 'political and societal injustices' and in many cases an increasingly extreme manifestation of misogyny. Being aware of these things is... good, not bad, in my opinion. I'll happily discuss further if you disagree but it's courteous to do so on the relevant threads rather than derailing ones about specific situations.
donnadenise · 10/09/2020 11:03

It won't hurt her book sales will it?

VinylDetective · 10/09/2020 11:07

@donnadenise

It won't hurt her book sales will it?
Won’t it? I’d have thought the demographic most likely to buy her books will be extremely pissed off at her volte face.
BovaryX · 10/09/2020 11:09

DeaconBlue

The topic of this thread is Nigella Lawson's public apology for a 27 year old opinion piece. One obvious reason for her recantation is because of the vilification directed at those who refuse to submit to the current orthodoxy on trans. Witness JKR. The NL episode is just one frame in a larger picture whose recurrent theme is denunciation on social media of anyone who does not embrace the 'woke' ideology and its slogans. I do not think this in anyway is a 'good' thing. It has enabled authoritarians to stamp out dissent and shut down debate. That is the central issue. Pointing it out isn't remotely 'discourteous.'

oakleaffy · 10/09/2020 11:09

@BovaryX

People deride the term 'woke' but I do think its use as 'being aware of and sensitive to political and societal injustices' is not a bad thing

Do you think it's 'progress' that women are having their sex segregated spaces colonised by an aggressive lobby group? Do you think it's acceptable that this lobby is promoting its agenda in schools? Do you think it's okay that there has been a 4,000 percent increase in young girls presenting for gender reassignment? Or that lesbians are told they are bigots if they try to exclude intact males from their social and dating circle? Do you think it's 'progress' that people who question any of the above are denounced, vilified, threatened, cancelled, sacked? I don't.

I do agree that there is a heck of a lot of outright bullying and harassment that goes with the 'trans' territory.

Someone commented that there were only two genders, 'male and female' and were told {on Farcebook} that they were being ''Offensive''.

It does seem to be men who are the aggressors ..it seems to be downright bullying in many cases.

That a physical man can ''Identify'' as a women and use women's refuges and prisons and changing rooms seems alarming to me.

There are Gay men's spaces where a woman wouldn't be welcomed, so it probably cuts both ways.

donnadenise · 10/09/2020 11:10

No such thing as bad publicity!

VinylDetective · 10/09/2020 11:13

@donnadenise

No such thing as bad publicity!
Like most tired old tropes, that isn’t remotely true.
DeaconBoo · 10/09/2020 11:16

Bovary, I think you and I are almost speaking in different languages. I'm trying to understand your points, but you listed multiple issues in your previous post such as the 4000% increase in girls wanting gender reassignment. I would consider that a topic separate from Nigella's apology that warrants its own thread, and in fact there have been many such threads.

It is generally good forum etiquette to discuss topics on the appropriate thread rather than risk the discussion getting diluted or derailed.

The topics you listed and suggested I present my opinion on were the ones I was referring to when I suggested separate threads. I am sorry if my post directly quoting that list of topics did not make that clear. I don't feel that continuing to attempt to discuss this with you will be productive, as I just am unable to keep up with the way you present your 'arguments' (for want of a better word - I mean 'arguments' in a neutral way).

I think I will draw a line under this and not continue this particular discussion here, but happy to contribute to discussion on those topics in other threads. Perhaps I should not have presented my thoughts on the word 'woke' as it is clear you and I perceive different connotations of the word.

BovaryX · 10/09/2020 11:19

as it is clear you and I perceive different connotations of the word

I agree. That is clear.

NewFactsEmerge · 10/09/2020 11:25

Won’t it? I’d have thought the demographic most likely to buy her books will be extremely pissed off at her volte face

The vast, vast majority won't give a shit.

Tootletum · 10/09/2020 11:27

Seems to me she was right. The person in questions seems to me to be in search of happiness via denying her own existence.

WinterIsGone · 10/09/2020 11:32

One of the comments under The Times article says Nigella "changed her mind because she currently has a young trans person in her family". Is that the case?