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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Conversation between two philosophers: what does it mean to be a man or a woman?

33 replies

EIEIohmygod · 08/09/2020 08:19

letter.wiki/conversation/916

An interesting exchange. Full version available on Academia.edu

Incredibly brave of Michael Hauskeller (head of philosophy at Liverpool) to facilitate this conversation. I imagine the backlash will be intense.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 08/09/2020 11:26

@twoHopes

I would think a philosopher would be able to understand this asymmetry once it's pointed out. My boyfriend had the same misconception and once I explained it he immediately got it. It's really not hard.

But instead of admitting he'd effed up he instead patronisingly says:
You look at things from a gender-political perspective, whereas I try to do so from a gender-metaphysical angle.

I.e. "I'm trying to do big, clever philosophy here, not get involved in pedestrian gender politics"

Whatever dude!

I wonder if he scrupulously considers issues which materially affect him metaphysically rather than politically?

Women don't have the luxury of treating this subject as purely a matter for academic discourse.

MichelleofzeResistance · 08/09/2020 13:15

He's also missed that there is no reciprocation within this.

In order for someone male to be able to do this, their belief that for them, their personal sense of 'woman' is something other than physical body and is about respecting instead a person's self stated inner sense of self and identity, and own choice of words for themselves, is intended to be of importance and value to everyone as a progressive, accepting society.

A female person however, sharing their belief in return that for them, their personal sense of 'woman' is entirely their physical body and nothing else as otherwise this is limiting them within stereotypes, and that they too wish to have their personal sense of identity and choice of words for themselves (adult human female, woman, biological female) respected..... is termed as 'hate'.

There cannot be equality in this; women cannot have the same choice, freedom of expression, sense of self and stated concepts. That equality apparently cannot coexist. There must instead be a division of people into the group who may name themselves, who may select their own sense of self and identity and have this respected and their boundaries honoured - and the group who will be named whether or not they agree or like it, who may not select for themselves, and are threatened for showing boundaries of their own.

Whether or not it is a comfortable truth: the group who are expected to respect and nurture others to their own detriment are the sex class to whom this oppressive stereotyping based on sex has always fallen.

Manderleyagain · 08/09/2020 14:26

Thanks for link that was a v good exchange. I thought they both made good points - also interesting discussion on this thread thsnks.

I think this thread is being a bit unfair on the bloke (whose name I can't remember so I will call 'Not-holly' - in homage to the green party 'non men). I know it shouldn't need bravery, but it actually is quite brave to do this. Not-Holly's letters work from assumptions that are so far from the current trans inclusive humanities & HE orthodoxy that they wld be considered transphobic by every uni lgbt committee member.

It was interesting to see him make the point about gender identity sounding a lot like the soul. That's something gc feminists have been pointing out for the whole time I've been reading on this (2 and a half yrs?) but the trans activists and trans inclusive academics really dont accept it. I would like to see an exchange between him and a lib fem or trad feminist philosopher who really doesn't agree that gi is anything like a soul and could put forward a view of what it actually is.

Manderleyagain · 08/09/2020 14:27
  • trans feminist philosopher, not trad feminist.
Jux · 08/09/2020 19:48

@MichelleofzeResistance

He's also missed that there is no reciprocation within this.

In order for someone male to be able to do this, their belief that for them, their personal sense of 'woman' is something other than physical body and is about respecting instead a person's self stated inner sense of self and identity, and own choice of words for themselves, is intended to be of importance and value to everyone as a progressive, accepting society.

A female person however, sharing their belief in return that for them, their personal sense of 'woman' is entirely their physical body and nothing else as otherwise this is limiting them within stereotypes, and that they too wish to have their personal sense of identity and choice of words for themselves (adult human female, woman, biological female) respected..... is termed as 'hate'.

There cannot be equality in this; women cannot have the same choice, freedom of expression, sense of self and stated concepts. That equality apparently cannot coexist. There must instead be a division of people into the group who may name themselves, who may select their own sense of self and identity and have this respected and their boundaries honoured - and the group who will be named whether or not they agree or like it, who may not select for themselves, and are threatened for showing boundaries of their own.

Whether or not it is a comfortable truth: the group who are expected to respect and nurture others to their own detriment are the sex class to whom this oppressive stereotyping based on sex has always fallen.

This is the first time I have really wanted a Like button on MN!
borntobequiet · 08/09/2020 20:26

I think most philosophers are twats, but I might be biased, having been patronised by a particularly pompous one when I was doing a Maths degree and foolishly chose to do a philosophy module to enhance it. It didn’t enhance it.

borntobequiet · 08/09/2020 20:29

Oh and he patronised me because: I disagreed with him, I was female, I was a mature student (single parent with children), and he knew damn well I was cleverer than him.

ChattyLion · 09/09/2020 09:22

Just placemarking looking forward to reading this

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