Stonewall - moving onto advocating for intersex people

[Kit19]

Apparently stonewall have struggled to get their messsage across. No I don’t think that’s the case at all Nancy, I think people are far too aware of your message & don’t agree. As you yelled #nodebate at everyone who asked question it’s not a surprise you are where you are

Also I do wonder how people with DSD feel about this....

Hopefully this will be their downfall. How do they plan on campaigning for people with DSDs to have the right to wait till adulthood before having hormone treatments and surgery to define them as a particular sex, rather than too early as children, because of the recognition that more time is required in some cases - something intersex campaigners have managed do so perfectly well on their own up until now - while at the same time campaigning for children who they say are trans to have hormone treatments and surgery before they reach adulthood because they know already what gender they want to be and don’t need any more time?

All the hmmmms

Ironically if they switched to women’s rights they’d have a never ending task list of things to lobby.

But there'd be no money in that though-as we are all keenly aware.

Is this to deflect the heat from their stance of it being OK for males to smash into women in rugby

I expect it's entirely consistent with their stance. They will no doubt be supporting Caster Semanya's participation in female events.

I personally think they will use intersex conditions as a Trojan horse. They might try to push terms like 'variations in sex characteristics' and get that fixed in legislation. Then argue that 'female' penises and 'male' vaginas are simply part of 'variations' in sex characteristics.

Very good point, I think you’re right.

I really feel for people with DSDs/intersex people. They're being used and disregarded and there seems to be very little actuall listening or attempts at understanding going on. I mean, is Stonewall going to respond to the tweets from Clare, above? Is Clare the wrong kind of intersex person? Because Stonewall pick and choose which lesbians, gay men and transpeople are the right kind, don't they? And actively promote 'no debate'. How on earth that is seen as something to legitimately aspire to, I do no know.

I have a novel idea.

Why don't they start advocating for all the teenage lesbians who've been brainwashed into thinking there's something wrong with them and that they need to be men?

No money in that one either, obvs.

Don't people with DSDs already have their own advocacy groups? What gives Stonewall the right to barge in and take over? Have they even consulted with existing groups? (I think we all know the answer to that)

Interestingly the Klinefelter' Syndrome Society in its submission to the consultation on the Scottish Hate Crime Bill constantly stressed it's approval of the separation between people with VSC, not DSD as this is not liked as a descriptor, from transgender . As VSC is not a sexuality or gender identity I really don't see where it fits in the Stonewall umbrella.

Klinefelter Syndrome and Turner Syndrome are chromosomal aneuploidies that just happen to affect the X chromosome, rather than, say, chromosome 21 (Down Syndrome).

Men with Klinefelter Syndrome are men.
Women with Turner Syndrome are women.

I know people with both. It’s utterly reprehensible to tell these people they are a “third sex”.

I was subjected to a ‘training session’ by Gendered Intelligence.

Amidst some truly astounding biological information a member of the group asked about DSD as the preferred term for ‘intersex’. “Oh we don’t use that term, it is medicalised and offensive “ quoth the 23 yo trainer.

I personally think they will use intersex conditions as a Trojan horse. They might try to push terms like 'variations in sex characteristics' and get that fixed in legislation. Then argue that 'female' penises and 'male' vaginas are simply part of 'variations' in sex characteristics.

Yes, exactly. Or calling intersex "non binary" because "sex isn't binary" therefore legitimising "non binary" when no one outside the trans lobby and their captured organisations takes it seriously. I've seen this construction used by some extremist TRAs.

Oh we don’t use that term, it is medicalised and offensive

Do they not actually realise that the conditions they group under "intersex" are... medical conditions? Frequently requiring lifelong treatment.

I suppose if "intersex" is an identity rather than actually referring to people with DSDs then that is no longer true. But this seems like a very dangerous development for people with DSDs, they are going to get elbowed out of their own (actually important) activism in favour of attention-seekers campaigning to be allowed to put I on the "gender" field of their passport.

It would be interesting to hear what DSD advocacy groups have to say about Stonewall barging in and deciding this is another cause they want to champion.

The Scottish Hate Crime Bill defined 'variations in sex characteristics' as follows:

The Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021, Part 3, Section 14, subsection (8) states

A person is a member of a group defined by reference to variations in sex characteristics if the person is born with physical and biological sex characteristics which, taken as a whole, are neither -
(a) those typically associated with males, nor
(b) those typically associated with females.

I don't know how this definition relates to DSDs, but I can see it being misused by the likes of Stonewall and others.

A person born male can be said to possess physical and biological sex characteristics not typically associated with females.

(And I don't even know what sort of hate crime stats are available on people with VSCs. We don't have hate crime legislation specifically for people with diabetes, for example.)

@OvaHere

Don't people with DSDs already have their own advocacy groups? What gives Stonewall the right to barge in and take over? Have they even consulted with existing groups? (I think we all know the answer to that)

That was my initial thought too. Even if (a big if) Stonewall wanted to support people with DSDs, it's pretty obnoxious to come in and think they can do a better job than the specialised charities who've been doing it for years.

Add to that the fact that they're clearly using language that has been categorically rejected AND the suspicions that they're using DSDs as a wedge issue and it seems like a highly contentious move.

Hm. A cynic might wonder if Stonewall were unhappy with how DSD/VSC/intersex (I'm sorry, I honestly don't know which term is the best to use) advocacy groups were engaging with the debate, and thought they'd rather take control and frame it in Stonewallian terms. I mean, they're a huge and enormously well funded organisation, versus various tiny grass roots groups.

The way she deliberately chooses to use the offensive term intersex instead of DSD is a strong clue that her advocacy on behalf of people with DSD will be along the same lines as her focus on "the distinctive experiences of lesbians".

Great news for self identified intersex people, (perhaps the most renowned being Ms Waxmyballs in Canada), and for all the self identified lesbians out there, who now dominate online lesbian dating sites, and spend a lot of time complaining about the hatefully bigoted genital preferences of lesbian terves.

Stonewall- the champions of heterosexuals everywhere.

This was the information give out to MPs when the GRA was put forward archive.is/8DEyd

Much conflation of trans as a kind of intersex

Tyro I was raised on old hymns, so for me 'peculiar ' will always mean a characteristic specialness - as in "Let every creature rise and bring / Peculiar honours to their King"

I've seen this discussed with DSD people before and they've repeatedly asked that lobby groups not politicise their condition and presume to speak for them.

It's a request which has fairly consistently been disrespected, as far as I can see.

In Germany and Austria there has been a strong push to promote the trans issue wrapped up in the ‚Intersex‘ issue.And or is working. Unisex toilets? Totally important for transandintersex (always in the same breath) people! Looks like Stonewall adopts that Strategy, now, that the original strategy is failing...