Grayson Perry

[madderose]

Interview in the Times:

Who could be more fearless, then, than Perry? So it comes as quite a surprise, within an hour in his company, to find myself beginning to suspect he is self-censoring. The suspicion is confirmed when I ask if he would call himself woke. “Me?” he exclaims. “What a question!” He pauses to choose his words carefully. “Well, I can agree with many of the things that the woke say.” He hesitates again. “But some of the perhaps more arcane campaigns of the woke might fizzle out before they become normal.” Such as? “Oh God, I am so not going there! Because there are certain arguments I keep out of that are real hot-button issues.” So the transgender debate, I begin but he cuts me off quickly, repeating: “There are certain arguments.” And he steers clear because? “I don’t want it to define my public persona. Like it has [with] other people.” Does he mean JK Rowling? He repeats: “Like it has other people”^ which makes us burst out laughing, because he sounds like a politician.^

So basically, he is GC but he's not brave enough to come out and say it like JK has? I've always been a fan of his but feel a little disappointed......

I think it would be difficult for his stance to be that anyone dressing in a feminine manner and calling themselves a woman was actually a woman, wouldn't it?

I like him but think he's slightly problematic with respect to his alter ego.

Ultimately, I don't think women's rights are on his agenda.

It would be preposterous for him to say TWAW when for him it is so clearly performative when he becomes his alter ego

I haven't read the interview, so am commenting without context.
I really like Grayson Perry. He's a really interesting person and has a Zeitgeist-y style.
It's actually quite canny and maybe refreshing for him to sit on the fence. He isn't obliged to anyone to take a 'side'. I'm sure he is quite cognisant of the debate and furore and how toxic it is.

Oh he’s protecting himself by not saying what he thinks. Fine, whatever. I like some of what he says regarding gender stereotypes but the fact he calls his cross dressing a sexual fetish disturbs me as he is therefore getting a thrill out of other people’s reaction and making them part of his fetish. I just don’t like that.

Perry has many times fully admitted that dressing in the clothes of a young girl was sexually motivated for him.

Just because he's upfront about his fetish, doesn't make it any more acceptable, in my opinion.

It would be difficult for him to be gender critical, when he knows female gender stereotypes are something he has enjoyed sexually. And he can't be TWAW, for the same reason.

Grayson Perry has a stage persona
he chooses to keep it separate from his personal views

Lily Savage made Paul O'Grady famous.
Dame Edna Everage is not Barry Humphries
Danny La Rue was not Dan Carroll

the key point is that these are men who adopt an external persona
while never in any way pretending to be something they are not.

Very, VERY different from the TWAW brigade who want to trample women under foot.

He's been quoted before explaining that if he says too much people in the community get upset with him.

It's a very interesting interview. A couple of other excerpts:

I’m curious to know where he encountered the greatest cultural intolerance. “Hmm. There were the petty right-wing attitudes of the people in the countryside who’ve never really been exposed to diversity. But if you were making a considered, dispassionate judgment about their culpability in the culture wars — well, there’s a scene in episode two when I have dinner with a bunch of people on Martha’s Vineyard [the liberal, well-heeled island enclave off Cape Cod]. I accuse them of being asleep at the wheel, basically — of culpability for all the patronising ‘I/we’re so right’ snobbishness of the left.” A mischievous grin spreads across his face. “But they get really up in arms.” Did they not take it well? “No!” he hoots. “Really badly.”

While researching for the series he studied a map showing the American counties registering the highest levels of voter antipathy towards the opposition. “And the strongest hatred of the opposition came from the left, in left-wing Democrat areas. The right, I hate to say it, are on the whole more reasonable. More open-minded, more forgiving.”

and

I sense his impatience to get back to work. “How are we getting along time-wise?” he asks. I glance at my notes and see we’ve covered everything. His gaze follows mine and sees the subheading “MISC” under which my final questions were listed.

“Misc,” he grins. “I like it. Is that your preferred pronoun?” I laugh, and his expression fills with delight. “You can have that joke for free!”.

@ListeningQuietly

Grayson Perry has a stage persona he chooses to keep it separate from his personal views

Lily Savage made Paul O'Grady famous.
Dame Edna Everage is not Barry Humphries
Danny La Rue was not Dan Carroll

the key point is that these are men who adopt an external persona
while never in any way pretending to be something they are not.

Very, VERY different from the TWAW brigade who want to trample women under foot.

The fetish aspect makes Perry's case something other than mere external persona, but in that too he does not pretend to be anything other than he is. The 'Claire' fetish isn't ok but at least he's bringing it out into plain sight. That is at least a hell of a lot better than the men who claim to be women or girls. Perry enables the question: if there's an adult male dressing up as a girl then how exactly does that person differ from him - except in honesty and talent?

I love him in many ways and I think he's very clever and extremely good at thinking things through and getting to the heart of issues - his Reith lectures about art were totally fascinating. So I don't doubt that he has thought about it and knows what he thinks. But yes he's in a tricky position. He can't reasonably say TWAW and I can't imagine he does believe that, but he can't reasonably call himself a GC feminist either given the "girls' clothes" fetish thing.

I do feel a slight discomfort and I wish that instead of an alter ego, he just wore what he liked - and he does actually sometimes wear other "women's" clothes in a more normal way. I mean of course it's up to him what he does, but what I would love to see more of is men who know they are men and just explore wearing feminine clothing because they like it or for style reasons, like Billy Porter (fingers crossed hoping Billy Porter hasn't "come out as NB" yesterday or something).

Lily Savage, Edna Everage etc are different IMO because that's a persona for the purposes of entertainment. You know it's man, they know it's a man and that=knowledge is part of the entertainment act that is being performed.

With Perry obviously you know it's a man but "Claire" isn't really a persona with a personality or a story that's performed for entertainment – it's more just a look, and done for other reasons.

A friend of mine who knows GP, claims he told JKR that he was on "her side" when they found themselves together at a function. Shame he can't be more open.

He can be. He chooses not to be.

He's in the art world, hotbed of wokery. He would be absolutely roasted, lose friends, lose work and be ostracised. Now I know he should on principle go ahead and get roasted, but I have some sympathy. I can't be openly GC in my field and it sucks, and yes I'm a coward but I'm a single mum with a mortgage to pay and mouths to feed, so I've had to make that decision. Perry isn't in that position but I can imagine his work life is important to him.

Whatever we'd like to happen, people actually are entitled to stay on the fence.

I'm sure he is TWANW and have posted that in here before. I read a Guardian Q&A about 5 years ago in which he stated that your identity is co-constructed and you cant just unilaterally declare you are something and that's that. He was being pretty clear but is obviously trying to stay out of the thick of things. . I think he also sees himself as someone who asks the questions and tries to be thought provoking rather than making simple statements of opinion. I hope he is considering being braver .... LordCopper's comment is encouraging.... maybe his conscience is starting to bother him.

Mrs Cattywampus I know what you mean and I am in the same position as you.

But he is clearly enjoing prodding the smug complacency of some on the left (I am a leftie too btw).... what a perfect way to do that ;) he is really influential and well liked.... I havent given up hope.

I agree that a stage persona is very different from the transgender issues discussed a lot on this forum.

It's very clear that he is AGP but his 'Claire' persona did not take over him as a person. He's discussed this before.

He's on record now as saying Claire is a bit ruined now as she is so famous it's not the same for him being Claire as it used to be.

napody I agree with feeling the hope!

I notice the Grayson Perry interview was carried out by Decca Aitkenhead, who also asked Hillary and Chelsea Clinton about their views on the trans stuff, and managed to elicit a kind of half-acknowledgement from Hillary that she was uncomfortable with it. I suspect Decca is gc but probably isn't going to admit it publicly either.

And yes, Grayson could speak out, but won't. I'd like to say I don't blame him, but I do a bit. He has less to lose than some poor sod sacked after one week in the job.

I read his book “the descent of man” and think he make a lot of excellent observations on masculinity and gender. He clearly is gender critical in that he understands sex is inherent and gender is social, he’s not very feminist-allied though obviously as he openly fetishises femininity. Not everyone who is gender critical is feminist or a feminist ally, it’s not a straight alignment like that is it.
I enjoyed his documentaries exploring identity as well, interviewing people from diverse backgrounds and then making art pieces of/for them. He has obviously thought an awful lot about this subject both personally and professionally. I find it really sad though that someone so fiercely individual, intelligent, creative, who clearly enjoys sharing his insights into the world, exploring the human condition and instigating/facilitating debate with his work, feels bullied into concealing his beliefs on such a widely discussed topic though.

I think his answers tell you what he thinks in a way that means he can't be lambasted.

Clever.

He's still sailing pretty close to the wind.

The subtext of what he says is obvious, and a joke about pronouns at the end.

@Datun

Perry has many times fully admitted that dressing in the clothes of a young girl was sexually motivated for him.

Just because he's upfront about his fetish, doesn't make it any more acceptable, in my opinion.

It would be difficult for him to be gender critical, when he knows female gender stereotypes are something he has enjoyed sexually. And he can't be TWAW, for the same reason.

Gross.

@MrsCattywampus

He's in the art world, hotbed of wokery. He would be absolutely roasted, lose friends, lose work and be ostracised. Now I know he should on principle go ahead and get roasted, but I have some sympathy. I can't be openly GC in my field and it sucks, and yes I'm a coward but I'm a single mum with a mortgage to pay and mouths to feed, so I've had to make that decision. Perry isn't in that position but I can imagine his work life is important to him.

Whatever we'd like to happen, people actually are entitled to stay on the fence.

It's funny isn't it. The art world he revolves around is meant to be controversial, but actually, they're pretty conventional thinkers who'll go with the wind that blows hardest.