Schools re-opening post-Covid and gender-neutral toilets

[xxyzz]

Wonder if others are finding the same thing? My ds started back at school yesterday, and because of the year 'bubbles' at secondary, each year is confined to its own bit of the school and only allowed to use the toilets in that part. He is in Year 10, which has around 200 kids in the year, and the only toilets allocated to their year, unbelievably, are the boys' toilets on one floor. So these have now become de facto mixed-sex toilets for all 200 children.

There are two cubicles only. There was a urinal, as it was previously the boys' toilets, which is closed off, with a sign up not to use it. The cubicles have floor to ceiling doors, and there is one trough as a sink outside the two cubicles. The outside door onto the corridor has been taken off its hinges so that, in theory, the sink area is sort of visible to those passing.

This seems bizarre and I think illegal? 2 toilets for 200 children, who are only allowed to use the toilet in the quite short breaks, does not seem sufficient. In addition, I thought that over the age of 8, boys and girls were required by law to have separate toilets?

The school may not have had any choice on this, as it may be that government guidelines specified they needed to divide the school up like this - can anyone else confirm?

Or it may be that the school are doing this deliberately, and using the Covid changes to sneak this change past the parents and pupils? The school has been Stonewalled previously, and converted one toilet block to gender neutral last year (previously a boys' toilet). This met with massive opposition from parents and from pupils, who hated using the mixed loos, and so the school rowed back from plans to convert all the toilets to mixed-sex.

I'm wondering how much this school, and other schools, are using Covid restrictions as an excuse to introduce mixed-sex toilets throughout the school? Then once the pandemic is out of the way, mixed-sex toilets will have been normalised, and there will be no way to return to the former single-sex norm.

Am I being paranoid? And is there anything I can do about it? My ds hates using the toilets now, as aside from the long queues, groups of girls stand around doing their hair/make-up in front of the mirrors throughout the breaks, and he really doesn't feel comfortable going for a wee/poo with them watching him go in/listening outside! I imagine plenty of girls feel equally uncomfortable with the arrangement - I would certainly have hated it as a teen.

Even from a Covid point of view, surely forcing 200 kids to share 200 toilets is not going to give them enough space to wash their hands etc. If any child gets coronavirus, one imagines it will spread very quickly and easily with this kind of cramped toilet and hand-washing facilities.

Thoughts?

According to A Woman's Place, womansplaceuk.org/mixed-sex-toilets-ins-chools/ the current se up I've described is illegal.

I am wondering through whether Covid guidance for schools overrides any of this? Any teachers know about this?

DidoLamenting - yawn.

As just stated, you didn't need to know what Year 10 was. I made it clear it was a secondary school and applied to ALL YEARS.

Or do I have to describe what a secondary school is, and relate how it compares to a high school, etc, compared to all global education systems? Just to be 'inclusive'?

Do you have anything useful to contribute at all?

@CasuallyMasculine

Not knowing what "year 10" is I don't know if the cubicles need to have sanitary bins.

If only there was some way of finding out this sort of thing, where you type in some words into a kind of search engine thing and you get a list of possible answers?

Why should I ? If the OP can't be bothered saying what age her child is why do I need to make the effort.

The OP might bear in mind not everyone posting on here is British and that other parts of the UK have different school systems. A Scottish poster wouldn’t have written S4 for example and expect everyone to know what that meant or to Google it.

This may be a British site but Not everywhere in Britain uses the same school system. So “year 10” means nothing in Scotland.

Right, and I'm in Ireland, and I'm old, so even when I was in England it wasn't called year 10, but it's not beyond the wit of woman to have a quick google rather than make a sarky comment.

Mine are at primary, and a purpose-built building where each class has it's own, single person toilet, so they're mixed sex up to 6th class (11ish, for those wanting age accuracy), and 1 toilet for up to 30 kids. 2 toilets for 200 cannot be legal - they need portaloos (this is what one of my friend's kid's schools has as a setup here)

@xxyzz

DidoLamenting - yawn.

As just stated, you didn't need to know what Year 10 was. I made it clear it was a secondary school and applied to ALL YEARS.

Or do I have to describe what a secondary school is, and relate how it compares to a high school, etc, compared to all global education systems? Just to be 'inclusive'?

Do you have anything useful to contribute at all?

Why tell us your child is in year 10 if the age wasn’t relevant.

Your comment about being inclusive is ridiculous. What on earth is the difficulty in saying your child's age? It would have avoided your rather silly comment about a "British site"

If the cubicles are fully enclosed floor to ceiling then they are legal.

Right, and I'm in Ireland, and I'm old, so even when I was in England it wasn't called year 10, but it's not beyond the wit of woman to have a quick google rather than make a sarky comment

I'm fed up of the assumption that everyone is familiar with the English school system. It really isn't difficult to write the actual age. I don't see why I should have to Google that.

The guidance also states changing rooms should be available. Many schools have temporarily closed changing rooms as they don’t have enough and are asking pupils to come in PE kit for most of the day. The intro to the guidance does not sound legally binding to me but no expert myself. Covid guidance is largely at a head’s discretion. I just don’t think you will get far with legal spiel at this point and need to focus on practical solutions which would be 1) crown funding for temporary toilets 2) getting more toilets from other years. For example, clean other larger toilets at a point during eg lunch so available to year 10 early afternoon.

I'm fed up of the assumption that everyone is familiar with the English school system. It really isn't difficult to write the actual age. I don't see why I should have to Google that.

You don't - you don't have to join in at all if it's too hard. If someone did put S4, I wouldn't start having a go at them because not everyone's familiar with the Scottish school system, I'd just google it. Just like if someone mentioned something else that's freely googleable, rather than specific to their OP. If you don't want to do that, then don't, but don't make out like this is some massive inconvenience these terrible English are forcing on you!

@DidoLamenting Why should I ? If the OP can't be bothered saying what age her child is why do I need to make the effort.

But you made the effort to write all your posts. Would have been quicker to google!!

Just asked ds for further info and he worked out that there are actually enough toilets in the school for each year to have access to one boys' toilet and one girls' toilet.

So going mixed sex is completely unnecessary, and his year has been seriously short-changed on the toilet front!!

I am beginning to wonder if the school is doing this deliberately, using Covid as an excuse to make all toilets mixed-sex?

@DidoLamenting
“ If the cubicles are fully enclosed floor to ceiling then they are legal.”

As I read the law, the toilet and sink have to be within one enclosed floor-to-ceiling room if they are to be legal. Common washing areas are appalling for washing hands generally, for girls dealing with bloodied hands in particular, and encourage loitering in groups in schools which is intimidating for anyone wanting to poo, pee or period-manage in peace.

I am beginning to wonder if the school is doing this deliberately, using Covid as an excuse to make all toilets mixed-sex?

Well there you have it then. The kids are distressed, boys have lost the speed advantage and girls have no stage space to deal with periods and all this for a certificate

I would approach school by asking when the portaloos are coming for y10 as you’ve heard so much about the problems that only having 2 loos to 200 people is causing in so many different ways, and that obviously as an adult you can appreciate that wouldn’t work in an office so you can imagine the nightmare it must be causing when the school kids have such limited times available to them to use them as they need to be in lessons. Plus in these covid times it means that it becomes even more of a worry when so many kids need to use the loos and there’s not time to wash hands properly. Plus the new info coming out of China where they seem to think that sharing toilets systems can leas to the spread of covid you can understand they must be worried. But please could they at least let you know when the temp toilets will be installed so you can reassure your dc that the school will be providing appropriate, safe, hygienic toilet provision for all pupils ASAP.

Given that it’s only really one working toilet for 200 - expecting them to use a bin for paper is completely grim and inappropriate with so many kids that are not used to doing that. So even more reason for them to sort stuff out!

@DidoLamenting didn't you know everything is default English? 'Yawn' worthy isn't it. As evidenced by the rude OP's 'yawn' response. I wouldn't have a clue what that age was either.

No need to get off track though. This really angers me, WHY is it always girls being inconvenience. These are not gender neutral toilets, this is yet another example of boys toilets having a new label slapped on the front door and girls expected to accept it.

@DidoLamenting

Right, and I'm in Ireland, and I'm old, so even when I was in England it wasn't called year 10, but it's not beyond the wit of woman to have a quick google rather than make a sarky comment

I'm fed up of the assumption that everyone is familiar with the English school system. It really isn't difficult to write the actual age. I don't see why I should have to Google that.

Oh bog off. Year 10, even if you don't know the actual age, is clearly not primary school.

Stop being obtuse

What country do you live in the numbering of school years is so very different?

"If the cubicles are fully enclosed floor to ceiling then they are legal"

Wrong. Toilet and sink needs to be in the enclosed toilet cubicle.

If you've got nothing to add to the thread, maybe just scroll past and move on?

Why should I ? If the OP can't be bothered saying what age her child is why do I need to make the effort.

Because you’re the one getting the arse about it.

Somehalf "Oh bog off"

I've complained to other schools OP about this - it seems some years have drawn the short straws in many schools. Do complain, use the Women's Place advise referenced above

According to an article from 31 Aug 2020 in www.welfareatwork.co.uk

The law says that workers should not have to queue for long periods to use toilets and washing facilities. To clarify this point, the HSE quotes minimum toilet numbers per employees.
For women only or for mixed use, there should be 1 toilet and washbasin for 1-5 employees. The number of toilets and washbasins then rises according to the total staff. For example, 25-50 staff should have 3 toilets and 3 washbasins between them. And 76-100 employees should have 5 toilets and 5 washbasins.

For men only, there should be 1 toilet and 1 urinal for 1-15 employees. This rises to 2 toilets and 1 urinal for 16-30 staff, and 4 toilets and 4 urinals for 91-100 staff.

I don't see why children wouldn't need the same levels of toilet provision as adults. Since the cubicles aren't totally enclosed with sinks and sanitary bins they need to have separate provision for the female students.

Ah, thanks, @Stealhsquirrelnutkin, that's really helpful.

@midclegs, yes, think I will have to speak to the school about the numbers of loos. There's some quite weird toilet allocation going on here. And it seems fairly clearly to be against the law.

That's such a worry. When I was that age my periods were really heavy (gushing when it would come on so I'd have to rush to the toilet, largest tampon and nighttime pad needed and would have to be changed every few hours) and my cycle was 21 days long. i would have just not gone to school if there were inadequate toilet facilities and if it was day 1-3 of my period. I feel anxious just thinking about it now. I would definitely complain to the school, it seems vastly unfair that girls are expected to cope with the toilet facilities the OP has described.

Not read the whole thread (sorry) but SSA has resources to help challenge this. Here is our fact sheet:

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/singlesextoiletsfactsheet.pdf

And here is a letter on of our supporters wrote to her school demanding they share details of their impact assessment and outlining the schools responsibilities towards the safety of their pupils, it's very comprehensive:!

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Letter-about-toilets.docx

Brilliant, @2fallsagain - really helpful.

@2fallsagain

Do you know what response she received to that letter or what the outcome was?