Masks and veils

[TreestumpsAndTrampolines]

This has been going through my head for the last week, but it's not fully formed and I thought I'd throw it out here for some help thinking about it.

It used to be, that going in a petrol station wearing a motorbike helmet, or a bank wearing a niquab was just not allowed in the UK, and most people agreed that it was a security thing, and very important that we don't start allowing it.

Now, we're all required to wear masks to do these things, and no-one's even mentioned that security.

A little voice is whispering to me, that the face covering clearly wasn't that big of an issue then. That it was just that the people inconvenienced (bikers, women - a minority of women, generally ethnic minority women) weren't considered to have important opinions, as they are out-groups, and now there's a 'real reason', rather than 'their silly reasons'.

It is all complicated, because obviously, face coverings do facilitate crime, and I have big problems with religions compelling women to cover up, and on a personal note, I find it really difficult talking to people I don't know well, when their faces are covered.

But still, it's niggling at the back of my mind, that there's something not quite fair here.

We are in an extended crisis situation, and I think many of our usual social conventions have been upended. Hopefully temporarily. Plus, at least masks leave eyes visible, which also is another method of identifying/assessing/communicating.

Yes, it is possible that it's just the situation is so dire.

I suppose when it will be telling is whether people are still allowed to wear masks in banks/petrol stations once it's no longer obligatory (assuming we get to that point)

I still find it odd that of all the arguments for people not wanting to wear masks, facilitating bank robberies hasn't been one of them, when it's always mentioned about women in niquabs.

Our LA has put out some messages saying that you may be asked to remove your face mask in certain instances. Like banks, when buying age restricted products, and there was another one I don't remember.

The reason the authorities didn't like face coverings was because they can't identify people so easily, by looking at CCTV or using facial recognition. Have you researched facial recognition? Now that is sinister and gives authorities loads of power to track us.

I'm sorry but I really don't believe this stuff about masks being a form of social control.

The threat of coronavirus is real. We have an incompetent government in power who see everything - including a global pandemic - through the lens of how they can explout the situation to create profit opportunities for their mates or to increase their power.

Masks do help stop the spread of disease, but they should be just one measure.

Not nearly as much as, for example, funding schools so they can bring in measures like smaller class sizes, which would increase safety as well as supporting learning. Or having an effective track and trace system that diesn'tbreach privacy (ie run locally on pur phones not centrally). But they're not doing that as our wellbeing isn't their priority.

Telling people to wear masks is a something they can do that makes it seem like they're doing something. They didn't want even masks in schools, they've been embarrased into taking action because Scotland were doing it.

I can see why these things might come together in your mind but I think you are missing an important part of risk analysis - the issue of benefit. Right now, mask wearing in shops provides an important benefit to society and public health, which is considered more valuable than the increased security risk. Previously, a motorcyclist keeping her helmet on inside a shop or bank didn’t provide any external benefit to anybody other than a minor convenience to the motorcyclist. The religious argument might be more nuanced, I grant you that.

I’m also not sure that it’s discrimination against minorities. Bikers and certain religious women are probably the only two groups to regularly have faces completely covered and identity obscured by their attire, so they are affected by requests that their faces be identifiable for security reasons. If city bankers or aristocrats or whatever needed to or chose to wear balaclavas, they would equally have been asked to remove them in the prior circumstances, but that just wasn’t the case.

I promise I’m not blind to indirect discrimination but I don’t think your point is well founded in this case. The actual wearing of face coverings by religious women in patriarchal religions is definitely a point worthy of feminist consideration but I don’t think this is a useful angle

There's a good reason many black males will only wear surgical-style masks when out and about and eschew the bandana styles...

It's a global pandemic.
If people don't wear a mask the risk is increased for everyone.

Hijab/burka/helmets etc are indeed an issue for security as they make it harder to identify people, so it's right that they should be discouraged or prohibited in usual circumstances.

A surgical mask still leaves your hair/eyes/eyebrows visible unlike some religious coverings and helmets, they don't obscure as much information about a persons overall appearence eg ethnicity etc, so aren't as much of an issue in that way.

The Chinese are huge on state surveillence but surgical masks were the norm before the pandemic.

I promise I’m not blind to indirect discrimination but I don’t think your point is well founded in this case

Yes, perhaps this is why it never solidified properly in my head.

The Chinese are huge on state surveillence but surgical masks were the norm before the pandemic.

That's a good point.

I'm not sure about the idea that a mask doesn't obscure as much though - sure, while it was 25 degrees out, that's the case, but once we're all in woolly hats and coats we may as well be wearing balaclavas.

I've been reflecting on face masks and face coverings too; albeit in a slightly different way.

I'm actually finding it quite an interesting experience to wear a mask ( in spite of the stuffiness etc). I wear a black one most of the time. It has made me think about women in full, black burquas - with only eyes exposed.

I guess the difference comes with the fact that most people are now wearing masks, and as such the mask has become a common social currency and expectation. You don't stand out for wearing one. In fact, now you stand out if you don't wear one.

I've been enjoying the relative anonymity of wearing my mask - especially in town and in situations/places where I don't really know anyone. I guess anonymity is also partly the point of the burqua ( as well as symbolic reasons around public facelessness/voicelessness for women.

In a country in which all women wear the burqua by law or by tradition it has less or no power to offend in the way it does in British culture. In Britain, normally ( non covid times), women covering their faces in black cloth is an act which stands out, appearing almost as an act of social aggression against the values that women have long fought ( & died for) for.

Yet if you ever speak to burqua wearing women ( & I have) most are not wearing it to offend or insult ( although some younger, more highly educated women do wear it as a way to actively, almost aggressively, assert themselves and their culture/religion), they are simply wearing it as a sign of faith or their cultural norm.

I'm not sure about the idea that a mask doesn't obscure as much though - sure, while it was 25 degrees out, that's the case, but once we're all in woolly hats and coats we may as well be wearing balaclavas

Do some research into facial recognition, and also into how privacy laws about public spaces don't apply on private land. But there are large developments that create what seems like public space (I think there's one such area in Lings Cross for example) but are actually private land, they can track your movements.

It's a while since I looked into this (and not since GDPR) so I'm hazy on details but if you're concerned about civil liberties, this is much more real and open to abuse by those in power than some idea about masks being symbolic of social control.

*Kings Cross!

I know what you’re saying OP, I’ve thought this too with CCTV in shops for shop lifting etc.

It's a while since I looked into this (and not since GDPR) so I'm hazy on details but if you're concerned about civil liberties, this is much more real and open to abuse by those in power than some idea about masks being symbolic of social control.

Canary Wharf is a famous one.

TBH, facial recognition is a thing, but so is gait analysis, so is all of us carrying mobile phones, and RFID cards.

I wasn't really coming at this from any opinion on wearing masks, more from a slight discomfort that the reasons for being down on face coverings are so different depending on when that person is a minority female (people might wear them as a disguise to do nefarious things), or a middle-aged white male (it's all a conspiracy to control us).

Most people are perfectly recognisable in a mask that covers just their nose and mouth. The burka, which covers everything apart from the eyes, is a completely different proposition.

The good thing is I don't have to take off my motorcycle helmet to go into the garage any more! Some didn't care anyway but some insisted. Haven't tried the bank

@Justhadathought

I've been reflecting on face masks and face coverings too; albeit in a slightly different way.

I'm actually finding it quite an interesting experience to wear a mask ( in spite of the stuffiness etc). I wear a black one most of the time. It has made me think about women in full, black burquas - with only eyes exposed.

I guess the difference comes with the fact that most people are now wearing masks, and as such the mask has become a common social currency and expectation. You don't stand out for wearing one. In fact, now you stand out if you don't wear one.

I've been enjoying the relative anonymity of wearing my mask - especially in town and in situations/places where I don't really know anyone. I guess anonymity is also partly the point of the burqua ( as well as symbolic reasons around public facelessness/voicelessness for women.

In a country in which all women wear the burqua by law or by tradition it has less or no power to offend in the way it does in British culture. In Britain, normally ( non covid times), women covering their faces in black cloth is an act which stands out, appearing almost as an act of social aggression against the values that women have long fought ( & died for) for.

Yet if you ever speak to burqua wearing women ( & I have) most are not wearing it to offend or insult ( although some younger, more highly educated women do wear it as a way to actively, almost aggressively, assert themselves and their culture/religion), they are simply wearing it as a sign of faith or their cultural norm.

I’ve been thinking about this too... this might even become a social norm in the 2020s onwards, like women wearing full skirts with a brown hemline so they could toilet freely and discreetly in the palace of Versailles in the c17th

You're right OP. This is why I think it imperative to stop normalising this mask wearing. We do not have a cover-up culture. I dislike not recognising people. I dislike the covering up of facial expressions - I like to know whether words and microexpressions match. I dislike my muffled voice and that of others where we each struggle to hear the other. The point of burka is separation. I do not want to live in a world where people are yet further isolated from their fellow humans. None of my objections are anti-religion but is nonetheless a feature of why westerners (and me) have rejected the wearing of veils. Islam furthers the problem by selecting only one sex to be at a disadvantage of course. I feel that although my opinion may be controversial at least I am consistent in my position: to be anti-mask and anti-veil.

The lack of any apology or acknowledgement of the deliberately racist and sexist "letterbox burkha" comments from racist and sexist men is all I need to know about any "debate". Along with the medias collective amnesia about the past 5 years.

The wearing of masks as the norm in China and other east asian countries has been mentioned a few times on these boards. It's because of pollution not to reduce spread of viruses.

I was asked to remove my mask yesterday at tescos when I bought wine. I'm 42 and the 12 yr old guy asked me for ID!!!

Also has to remove it at a solicitors firm when showing ID for a morgage, so there are certainly places still insisting on seeing your full face.