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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

MGTOW. Wtaf?

37 replies

CallarMorvern · 26/08/2020 15:24

Not even sure what to say?

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/aug/26/men-going-their-own-way-the-toxic-male-separatist-movement-that-is-now-mainstream

OP posts:
ForrestTrump · 30/08/2020 00:54

There must be lots of women who experience resentment for not fitting with the objectified 'ideal female' stereotype, yet they don't seem to turn into groups planning violent retribution. I think 'incels' initially included women as well. It's the male entitlement, arrogance and aggression that's the problem.

Women who fit feminine attributes well are also rewarded. I think this is a fact of human life - good looking women and men who fit societal norms and expectations have usually had greater opportunities for relationships, status and respect etc throughout history.

Agreed.

An aggravating factor may also be the fact that generally the man is still the one who's expected to make the first move, so men that aren't confident or 'alpha' will likely struggle much more than shy women. I also think that lack of financial success is less of a handicap to women than men in terms of dating (even if the basis is likely sexism - the view of man as the provider etc). Plenty of normal sized men seem happy to date a larger woman too, but you don't see many fat men with slim women unless they're rich (the man, that is).

Still no excuse but possibly contributing factors. It seems to me that the MGTOW community isn't just eschewing women but rather the whole patriarchal sociological status quo.

Siameasy · 30/08/2020 02:41

There’s one at my work and I have said yes please do bloody go your way. He then says well women don’t mind us going to war..I’m like you lot probably started the war in the first place.

It makes you think...when posters mention incel terror attacks, I can’t think of any lone female serial killers or any serial killers who attacked heterosexual men? Women, children and gay men are the usual victims. The Yorkshire Ripper terrorised women in the North for many years.

ForrestTrump · 30/08/2020 04:23

He then says well women don’t mind us going to war..I’m like you lot probably started the war in the first place.

Gotta say I've never really understood this argument. I may share my biological sex with a Taliban fighter but likely have little else in common. It seems a bit like saying we're all responsible for human violence.

PlanDeRaccordement · 30/08/2020 04:58

MGTOW is old news. I ran across them back in 2014 or so because they have some horrible Paul Proteus YouTube videos about “Leave The Bitch” if she has any mental illness because “the bitch is crazy” etc. Lots of ignorance about mental health and behaviour. They espouse Nast misogynistic things like “pump and dump” and see women as only worth whatever their sexual attractiveness is based on age and beauty and child status.

They are not to be confused with MRAs who are quite different.

DrDavidBanner · 30/08/2020 09:26

It's the whole negativity that undermines the MGTOW movement - instead of learning to be happy being on their own or forming uplifting and positive friendships with other men, maybe even creating a commune. Angry, self-absorbed, anonymous rants online are so pointless.

This. There are plenty of (heterosexual) men who choose to live single but productive lives without making a song and dance about it. I really don't mind if some men do not want to be involved with women, to a certain extent I can even understand it, (how many times have we mused about a private women's island/commune free from men). Its the whining and moaning that goes along with the MTGOW movement that irritates me.

It reminds me of toddler tantrums.... actually maybe that's why they behave that way. men who make a considered choice to be single are at ease with their choice and 't need to create a movement, but maybe MTGOW is just a reactionary group which is why they need to attention?

NonnyMouse1337 · 30/08/2020 11:03

generally the man is still the one who's expected to make the first move, so men that aren't confident or 'alpha' will likely struggle much more than shy women. I also think that lack of financial success is less of a handicap to women than men in terms of dating

Yes, some of these will have arisen from past cultural and evolutionary requirements, but have morphed into the sort of rigid gendered stereotypes that affect men and women in so many ways. Some people might not be that bothered by them, especially if they are outgoing, confident, attractive and so on, but for many of us these kinds of expectations will affect us.

The MGTOW types haven't realised that if they let go of such stereotypes and expectations (and looked for women who were also willing to let go of gendered expectations) then they might be a lot happier in themselves. Instead of projecting their unhappiness at their gender roles as the fault of 'evil' women, they need to grasp that rigid expectations are imposed on both sexes and repeatedly reinforced by everyone through cultural and societal forces throughout history. Much easier to rant and whine at someone else as the source of all your problems though.

ForrestTrump · 31/08/2020 02:22

Indeed. I do think that a lot of it is online based though. The internet has the capacity to being together the minority of loonies who otherwise would likely be such a minority that they wouldn't even register.

FifteenToes · 31/08/2020 10:48

What would be really interesting would be if MGTOWs and radical feminists, despite the striking conflict of so many of their views, were to converge from opposite directions on the central insight they seem to have in common: that models of relationship and marriage based on outdated, power-based gender stereotypes are bad for EVERYONE.

I actually think it's positive and potentially fruitful that a visible cohort of men (rather than just individual non-conformists, who have always existed) are coming round to challenging society's brainwashing that everybody needs a relationship - and preferably an officially approved straight one involving marriage and children - to be whole. That it's been left to a bunch of horrendously misogynist, right wing gun toting throwbacks to do it is a shame, but valid content can come from surprising sources.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 31/08/2020 13:21

New book out next week - seems apposite for this thread.

www.simonandschuster.co.uk/books/Men-Who-Hate-Women/Laura-Bates/9781471194337

MGTOW. Wtaf?
stumbledin · 31/08/2020 16:41

The Guardian article was free publicity for the book by the author ie Laura Bates wrote an article to promote her book.

Typical of the Guardian instead of covering in the news the growth of incel culture, and the overlap with mass shootings and domestic violence, they instead help promote the career of one of their employee's who is attempting to appropriate information that is widely written about on social media and other papers.

The Guardian isn't a newspaper. It is a small clique of friends promoting each other and their politics. A bit like how the Tory Government forms policy!

Durgasarrow · 01/09/2020 15:45

Don't forget the branch of incels who "become women" just for the benefits--this group of people don't call themselves transgender, they call themselves transmaxxers. There's a huge subreddit on the subject:

www.reddit.com/r/transmaxxing/

ForrestTrump · 02/09/2020 03:13

What would be really interesting would be if MGTOWs and radical feminists, despite the striking conflict of so many of their views, were to converge from opposite directions on the central insight they seem to have in common: that models of relationship and marriage based on outdated, power-based gender stereotypes are bad for EVERYONE.

Despite incels being a bit more repugnant, I think there are quite a few similarities between extreme feminism and MRAs.

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