The enduring roots of queer theory - the post-modern origins of the politics of sexual transgression

[stumbledin]

Found this article a bit on the "light" side, a sort of pop video history of queer politics.

But am posting because it often comes up on threads about how the rise of Queer Politics led to or collided with the growth of trans beliefs.

" ... Prior to our contemporary juncture where queer theory and queer politics are almost unquestionable, both were in fact contested throughout the 1980s in what became known as the “sex wars.”
Opposing sides consisted mainly of radical and lesbian feminists who believed sexuality should, like any other topic, be subject to ruthless criticism, and on the other side, proponents of “kink.”
Those who espoused the virtues of kink, primarily in the form of bondage, domination, sadomasochism (BDSM), did so through a coarsely simplistic idea: that if something sexual is desired it must be a moral good, and that the more transgressive that desire and its accompanying sexual acts are, the better.
That assertion existed in opposition to radical feminists who theorised that men and women are socialised into eroticising domination and submission.
According to radical feminists, we live in an alienated and alienating, unequal and unjust society.
We are therefore conditioned to reproduce those hierarchies sexually.
... "

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/foucault-san-francisco-enduring-roots-queer-theory

Would suggest reading this and then listen to Selina Todd who looks at this more from a European socialist perspective.

The Selina Todd piece is great. Thanks for the link. As for Foucault and Queer Theory it makes me sick. How is it that the perceived right to achieve orgasm by any means desired can be promoted as a public good? There is something so base and degrading of the human spirit in that I find it profoundly depressing. People can aspire to higher things than getting their rocks off.

Thanks for these, very interesting. Bookmarking to watch/read later.

Yes the Selina Todd speech is great. The irony being that she is saying as an academic historian and socialists is in fact what radical feminists were saying at the time it started to happen - and nobody listened.

Least of all many leftwingers at for instance NCCL (now liberty) and so on.

The response was it's just man hating lesbians etc..

And in fact there is no satisfaction from knowing we were right at the time as we couldn't translate that into action - counter campaigning.

Which makes one think however much on mumsnet we like to have endless threads about how outraged we are at yet another act of anti woman queer (including trans) activism, if we only talk to each other how does that stop it / turn the tide.

(I am saying this partly influenced by only just finding out that WAP etc., is all about. So depressing women colluding in their own sexual oppression and marketing it as feminism. If you follow Gail Dines on facebook she made some really good comments.)

I'll take a look at Gail Dines. I googled WAP and wished I hadn't - ick! Perhaps I come across as prudish, but where the hell is the discussion on caring in sex relationships now, rather than just getting one's end away. I am so appalled. What is needed is a global media campaign to really take off, but I see the problem in platforms being shut down to sensible discourse and I see/hear those who are trying to speak up and organise and am so grateful to them. I guess we need to amplify these voices and garner support. I am sure it is there. I actually think that the fact that these conversations happen on Mumsnet in UK is a positive. The fact that it is "mums" deemed to be promoters of hate is so damned incongruous.

I'm delurking to say I am not a parent but have been reading this board a lot since the monstering of JK Rowling, and the disappearance of some feminist subreddits.

What I've learned about queer theory and the nature of free speech from this board has blown my mind open, and led to a whole new way of looking at so many things I previously just passively accepted.

Never, ever underestimate how many lurkers are reading along, and turning away from liberal feminism for something more radical, getting their start from you Joody and the other fine posters of FWR.

There are indeed fine posters here, and hopefully some of the missing ones will find their way back eventually.

But liberal feminism is the illusion, that you can create a fair and equal society by pandering to the demands of those who hold power in society and perhaps get paid a little money in reward.

So nice that a "lurker" feels they want to take part!

There was a thread on here about WAP which I ignored as I just didn't know what it was about but from some discussion on facebook I did look it up. And what seems so disturbing is the 2 women involved are happy to promote the song and talk about liking rough sex, choking etc..

See www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4001526-WAP-song-with-Cardi-B-slow-hand-clap-for-lib-feminism

And it was on facebook that I saw a post from Gail Dines but feel I cant copy and paste as I dont think her posts are public. (For those who dont know she is an active campaigner against pornography, not just for the women abused for the sake of pornography, but also the impact on young people.
www.gaildines.com/
www.culturereframed.org/

But it can be depressing to realise how what was in fact the interest of a very small group that has managed from the 80s to infiltrate so many sectors of influence, so that their outsider ideas have now been accepted and incorporated into the main stream.

For me it is because it is so much about male privilege getting what it wants - and those speaking out against it just being ignored or ridiculed.

@LurkyDeLurk94 nice to meet you virtually :) I am also a recent de-lurker. @stumbledin yes depressing is the word. I have found myself very low about this stuff recently. I think many women don't speak out against it for fear. The fear multiplies if one is a parent as repercussions of one's own outspokeness impact kids and partners and families. I've heard it said people are controlled best not by fear for themselves but for those they love. All the same, this shit is the future for our daughters and sons. It needs experienced sensible voices to shine a light on it. These voices are there as you say, but when they speak the response is almost dystopian: the politicians, the journalists, the lawyers, the lecturers and teachers, the professionals that the young should be able to turn to ignore or shut down. It seems to me that there are so many now in capture to the corporates (by which I mean YouTube, Twitter, Amazon, Starbucks and the like). Hell I want to turn away from it. So I understand why people don't speak out. It is a massive powerful strike to freedome of thought that has snuck in under the radar. We need to find ways to protect and amplify people when they do. Right now there is an inevitable shut down and name calling, life trashing and not just for oneself. A movement against this stuff needs men to step up too - loudly - I feel. There are a lot of decent, loving men about who don't buy into this. I noted Posie putting out a call to men to join her in her latest online video post.

Another aspect of the queer philosophy de-railing and colonising a legitimate rights group.

" ... The drive to include fetishes in Pride marches is symptomatic of how aimless the “LGBTQ+” movement has become; the passing of same-sex marriage legislation has left advocacy organisations looking for new oppressed groups to represent. With legal equality won, it seems all that is left with regard to the acceptance of sexual minorities is to push against the boundaries of social decency by bringing fetish under the LGB banner. Those who have long been involved with the fight for same-sex equality are not giving up without a fight, Kate Harris of the LGB Alliance explains:

These fetishists try to latch onto our LGB movement to push their own repulsive agenda. They tell us we must be “inclusive” and use catch phrases like “acceptance without exception”. Our message to them is clear – you and your ideas can go elsewhere – you were never part of our movement and never will be. Inclusion and acceptance without exception? We don’t think so. ... "

thecritic.co.uk/pups-furries-kinksters-have-no-place-in-pride/

"the passing of same-sex marriage legislation has left advocacy organisations looking for new oppressed groups to represent"

and yet somehow deciding to throw their energies behind helping women where there's plenty to do! was never so much as an inkling of an idea. Weird.

and yet somehow deciding to throw their energies behind helping women where there's plenty to do! was never so much as an inkling of an idea. Weird.

Lacks the novelty factor.

"Lacks the novelty factor."

True. There is that.

And yet, on second thought, it would have obviously been novel for them. (Yes, I know, wrong kind of novelty.)