Scotland hate crime bill

[BovaryX]

There is an another article in the Spectator which discusses Scotland's hate crime legislation and its chilling impact upon freedom of speech. It says that the Justice secretary is in thrall to coercive progressivism and the potential implications of this bill are extremely alarming.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/scotland-s-hate-crime-bill-would-have-a-chilling-effect-on-free-speech

It's weird, isn't It? Seems to be cross party, too. Not good for a healthy democracy, I seem to keep saying that and I don't want to. I want to trust our govts and systems to be robust and basically sound, I know they'll never be perfect but this divorce of politics from the populace I find deeply worrying.

@ArabellaScott

It's weird, isn't It? Seems to be cross party, too. Not good for a healthy democracy, I seem to keep saying that and I don't want to. I want to trust our govts and systems to be robust and basically sound, I know they'll never be perfect but this divorce of politics from the populace I find deeply worrying.

Yes, it is very disturbing. There is an interesting article about the US and the religious overtones in the woke movement. I will post link

www.spiked-online.com/2020/08/14/wokeness-old-religion-in-new-bottle/

I agree that the ECHR provides more robust opposition to the curtailing of free speech. I thought you may have initially cited the HRA instead on the basis that we may not be subject to the ECHR in the near future

The ECHR, or at least the council of Europe, was an initiative of Churchill’s following the Second World War, which is an entirely seperate legal system to, and completely predates, the EU.

Don’t see why we wouldn’t be ‘subjected’ to it when it was something we were very instrumental in the origins of.

On the not currently including ‘sex’ as a characteristic under the Bill I have two points: 1) it takes some gall, some real disregard of women to protect every other category of persons who conceivably might suffer from harassment etc due to a shared characteristic and omit females - I cannot believe that abuse harassment discrimination and violence against females is not the most prevalent form of differential treatment in Scottish society. 2) On the other hand(!) the inclusion of ‘sex’ in the Bill is problematic from the perspective of females - this would potentially criminalise or at least inhibit sex class analysis e.g. pointing out that 98 per cent of sex crime is committed by males and any academic analysis etc based on sex class analysis.; it wòuld be another basis for criminalising the gender critical for example. Some women’s groups I think argued for the creation of a separate category of misogynistic abuse which would avoid this problem. My personal view is that the stirring up offences should be dropped altogether. Only activities intended to incite violence etc should be caught. We need freedom of speech.

Thanks, Bovary. Interesting article.

'if you believe that your ordinary political opponents are not merely mistaken, but are evil, you have ceased to do politics and begun to do religion.'

Indeed. It's useful to see the roots of this in US cultural context, too - so different from UK history, politics, culture, even religion. We have at least a basically more secular political system here, I would say?

From what very little I understand of the EHCR, we will still be party to it but Brexit is likely to weaken its influence.

@ArabellaScott

Thanks, Bovary. Interesting article.

'if you believe that your ordinary political opponents are not merely mistaken, but are evil, you have ceased to do politics and begun to do religion.'

Indeed. It's useful to see the roots of this in US cultural context, too - so different from UK history, politics, culture, even religion. We have at least a basically more secular political system here, I would say?

I think this Manichean aspect to political disagreement is present in the UK as well. The level of hyperbolic rhetoric about 'evil' Conservatives, to describe a party whose leading lights could not articulate a Conservative principle if they had a hundred years is a case in point. The explicitly religious imagery in the US woke movement has s resonance and significance because of the puritan roots of European settlements there. There is a fanaticism in the air, it's a very strange time.

@Babdoc, utterly brilliant post. This is exactly how it feels to be in Scotland right now. Being English, we feel genuine apprehension about what Nationalism is stirring up.

The talk on Radio 4 motorcyclenumptiness was this by John Gray:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000ltfd

It was repeated this morning. It is well worth a listen.

Apprehensive about being English in Scotland? There's very little anti-English rhetoric in Scotland at the moment. I've lived here 40 years, it's virtually a murmur compared to how it used to be. The battle lines are drawn along different divisions at the moment.

There is a fanaticism in the air, it's a very strange time.

Yes, I can see politics being pushed to the extreme in at least two directions! But I am not sure how much of it is idealism/ideology driven and how much neo-liberal manipulation. People like Cummings don't strike me as ideologues - just people who can see how useful divisive ideas can be as tools for manipulation. I think 'wokeness' is one of those - as was Brexit, Scottish independence, etc. Destabilising, polarising, emotive subjects. In the US, that issue seems to be race. The Russian interference is another matter - these 'wedge' issues. Used to divert, but with unfortunately potentially serious consequences for everyday life. And sometimes handy vehicles for justifying restricting civil liberties.

Where a power is retain by the UK government (such as the Equality Act) the Scottish Parliament does not have powers to redefine the terms of that act.

I think that's an interesting, pertinent question, does this constitute a redefinition? I don't believe it's a sensibly written bill but does it run afoul of reserved powers?

Don’t see why we wouldn’t be ‘subjected’ to it when it was something we were very instrumental in the origins of.

It's not without precedent, for example, the disagreements in 2014 on prisoners' voting rights.

Liked that broadcast nauticant thanks

When is the bill meant to come in? Will it be in place before the canvassing starts for the election in 2021?

I think that's an interesting, pertinent question, does this constitute a redefinition? I don't believe it's a sensibly written bill but does it run afoul of reserved powers?

Forewomenscotland have taken legal advice - not about the hate crimes bill but the gender representation on public boards (Scotland) act which redefines ‘women’ as anyone who wants to be called a woman. They are about to put in a request for a judicial review.

Those poll results show that this legislation has limited public support. 87 percent think that freedom of speech is an important right and 73 percent think disagreement does not equal 'hate.'

Comres poll link:

t.co/VpdOdYQ8tp

From this tweet.

On phone so can't go through it, but according to Maya Forstater

Progressive authoritarianism on the rise

21% in Scotland say it should be a criminal offence to say that someone born biologically male cannot become a woman

40% of adults under 25! / 1 in 4 women
t.co/gBFkCckANo

Thank you, Aesopfable, that could prove to be a revealing decision.

It's amazing that the SNP are utterly obsessed with 'freedom'...for a new nation state...from Westminster so so utterly cavalier with freedoms for individual citizens.

See also: Offensive Behaviour at Football Act, Named Person.

That other Daisley piece (on the opinion poll) makes the point that they are obsessed with painting Scotland and Scots are more progressive than the rest of the UK (not borne out by the evidence when you look at attitudes to immigration, welfare state etc.) but at the same time they are desperate to police the behaviour of Scots.

*it should be a criminal offence to say that someone born biologically male cannot become a woman

40% of adults under 25!*

Unbelievable.

'Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities' . (Voltaire).

Scotland on Sunday's editorial leader on the Hate CRime bill:

'not just a bad law but effectively unenforceable.'

twitter.com/_freetodisagree/status/1297491982198210560/photo/1

ArabellaScot, I don’t know which part of Scotland you live in, but there is very definitely anti English sentiment in my part.
My surgical colleague had an SNP supporter spit in his face and swear at him for speaking in an English accent. Ive been told to go back to England - by a retired church minister, of all things. There are racist thugs waving anti English banners at Edinburgh airport. I’ve been intimidated by white van men while campaigning for the Union. Neighbours were warned to take down their union jack flag or risk a brick through their window.
I think you are being very naive or are in denial about the poisonous atmosphere brewing here. All nationalism is predicated on hatred of others - it divides communities very clearly on racial lines into “us” and “them”. The SNP stir hatred of “Westminster” as a euphemism for “the English”. They are tapping into a dark and nasty thread in the Scottish psyche for political gain.
I foresee Scotland ending up like Northern Ireland at the height of the Troubles. The SNP are natural bedfellows of Sinn Fein and the IRA.

That all sounds rotten, Babdoc, I'm sorry to hear about it. Of course there will always be arseholes and jingoism (on both sides, too - I hear probably as much anti-Scots rhetoric from English people living here as I do the converse) - but my experience is that there is much, much less anti-English sentiment about than I remember from my childhood.

I don't agree that 'westminster' is a euphemism for the English - I think things are more getting divided along this new woke-progressive line versus - I suppose - Tory/midleft/establishment lines.

I think this is terrifying and also utterly insane.

If they are mad enough to vote it through our best hope is that the electorate gets so pissed off that it will vote the SNP out.

People have already said what I want to say, but one more thing: seven years for breaking this law? Seven years? Bearing in mind that Eric Joyce got a suspended sentence for downloading videos of babies being raped?

Scottish Green Party leader and arch misogynist Patrick Harvie has popped up to defend the bill. Funnily, he's obfuscating on the (non) inclusion of hate crime against women. Many think that if "stirring up hate" against women were a crime, he'd be one of first to get a tap on the shoulder!
twitter.com/patrickharvie/status/1298604634223902724?s=20