Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Speech by Emily Weir of Gender Critical Autistics

30 replies

youkiddingme · 19/08/2020 23:05

Thought provoking perspective on the transitioning of autistic children

OP posts:
Melroses · 19/08/2020 23:36

Thanks - that was good and clear. That 1.6% of the population make up 35% of referrals to GIDS should warrant alarm bells and robust research.

Silencia · 20/08/2020 01:19

Is Gender Critical Autistics a group?

(I was just about to have an appointment to talk to my GP about a referral for diagnosis when lockdown hit. I may well not be autistic, but I score 6 on the AQ-10 and 37 on the longer AQ and have had some suspicions for a long time. Either way, I have family members who definitely are autistic and the sterilisation angle worries me.)

youkiddingme · 20/08/2020 12:05

Don't know much about it but they have a small, recently created, FB group

www.facebook.com/groups/319309189461011/?ref=share

OP posts:
Babdoc · 20/08/2020 12:51

Emily is my amazing daughter, and I am utterly proud of her for making that speech and setting up the GC autistics FB group! They have over 100 members already. Emily helps out with autistic support in her workplace too.
Anyone on MN who is autistic or has autistic relatives and is thinking of joining her group will find it a safe space for GC views, and fully in favour of campaigning to get proper assessment of autistic teens who may wrongly think they are transgender just because their autism means they don’t fit gender stereotypes. We can have very rigid thought patterns - “I don’t like pink frilly dresses, I like computer games and trains - I must be a boy then”.
Autistics often have obsessional interests (mine was Star Trek!) and if those happen to be stereotypically male, an autistic girl is at risk of wrongly being told she is transgender. It is no coincidence that the incidence of autism in gender clinics is way above the population average.
As Emily says in her speech, the inappropriate hormone treatment of these teens sterilises them just as effectively as any Nazi eugenics program, which removes us from the gene pool. You can understand why we need to fight back, to campaign for our continued existence, and our right not to be forced into ridiculous gender stereotypes that will never fit us.

Chrysanthemum5 · 20/08/2020 13:05

@Babdoc please thank your daughter for setting this up. My daughter is autistic and very literal and I dread her getting caught up in this gender nonsense

DianasLasso · 20/08/2020 13:28

Tell your daughter from me Babdoc that she's fabulous.

Melroses · 20/08/2020 13:32

She is indeed an amazing daughter Star

I have found with my own daughters that there is not a lot out there for teens who are not into the pink and fluffy and male attention. Many of the areas of work and play, which were stereotypically non conforming have been made over so the pressure to be sexually alluring is everywhere.

morningtoncrescent62 · 20/08/2020 14:23

@Babdoc you have a daughter to be very, very proud of. As you know! I've just watched her brilliant speech, and it's helped me to understand. What an insightful, compassionate and courageous young woman.

Suffrajester · 20/08/2020 14:51

Thanks everyone for your kind words! :) I'm not the first by any means to raise the issue: Transgender Trend, 4th Wave Now and Safe Schools Alliance, and a few Mumsnetters have already mentioned the impact TRA ideology and medicalisation is having on autistics, but there wasn't really one joined up place or group by and for us. So that's what our group is, for autistics and friends (like I say in the clip, we're only 1.6% of the population, so we need all the friends we can get!).
I was diagnosed around the time of the MMR hoax, and I saw a lot of very dangerous quack "cures" for autism being pushed by profiteers, including bleach enemas ("miracle mineral solution") and unnecessary colonoscopies that have left some kids with perforated bowels, so to me this isn't anything new, it's just using trans people as useful idiots to push the same malpractice of autistics that they have done for a while now. In my speech I was focusing on the eugenics issue (we were asked to keep it to two minutes) but I could've gone on about other autism "cures". What worries me is that, for all of those previously, we've been able to rely on autism organisations and services and on pop science educators to debunk them and openly criticise them and show them to be medical malpractice, but they're all being quiet on this one. Perhaps because there's a bigger lobby behind this, and because they don't want to appear transphobic (even though a lot of people who medically transitioned as adults are speaking out against it, but they don't tend to have the ear of Stonewall, Mermaids et al).
I'm planning to draft letters to autism organisations, thanking the ones who are supporting autistics on this and questioning/confronting the ones who are supporting our sterilisation, and will share in the group so we can agree on wording and the like. Lovely to meet other autistic women and friends :D

Suffrajester · 20/08/2020 14:56

@Melroses

She is indeed an amazing daughter Star

I have found with my own daughters that there is not a lot out there for teens who are not into the pink and fluffy and male attention. Many of the areas of work and play, which were stereotypically non conforming have been made over so the pressure to be sexually alluring is everywhere.

Yes, it's something I've seen as a maths grad and software dev lately - misguided attempts to get girls into STEM by making it look pink and fluffy or sexy (creepy at that age) instead of just making it what it is and encouraging girls to give it a try, or having girls-only groups where they can try it without boys talking over them or hogging the equipment. My boyfriend's an electronics engineer and did schools outreach for a while, and he had a load of high school girls happily building a robot together and making it race around. They didn't need it to be pink or pretty, they just needed the space to work on it and to be listened to and not dismissed out of hand. Lots of girls are quite bookish or practical and have a good mind for STEM, and there's many different roles within it that people with different sorts of minds can work on, it's more about not discouraging them than it is singling them out and trying to put "girly" stereotypes on it.
Melroses · 20/08/2020 15:08

I have been very surprised by the lack of dissent from autism organisations. You would expect them to be a bit more circumspect.

NettleTea · 20/08/2020 15:20

i went to a NAS talk on gender for transgender trend a couple of years back. I spoke to the organisers and pointed this stereotyping out, and they seemed to agree, but it was easy to see the audience dominated by rainbow orgs already at that time. A few people asked some questions, but were soon 'corrected' by gender 'experts' from these orgs.
The talk involved alot of quack science by speaker Wenn Lawson about hormonal washing and such bs

Suffrajester · 20/08/2020 15:54

I think part of the problem is we've had this gender stereotyping in autism research for a while already, Simon Baron-Cohen is a big proponent of the "extreme masculine brain" theory, even though there's no evidence of male and female brains being different (they're homogeneous sets, there's more variation within each sex and overlap to the point where any difference is statistically insignificant - looking at a random brain, you can't predict if it's male or female). Cordelia Fine in "Delusions of Gender" really takes him to task on that. I really think it's genetic, there may be environmental factors that switch it on or off but someone has to already have a genetic predisposition to it, and we know it's congenital so it's either a mutation or inherited, and it runs in families so I'd say inherited.
That's part of the reason girls were underdiagnosed for a long time; we're pushed into social situations and expected to learn social skills much younger than boys are, and we're encouraged to do imagination play and role play which helps us practise social skills even if they don't come naturally to us (I used to do theatre and improv comedy and I still play tabletop roleplaying games, they're all very useful for practising). So we learn to mask and "pretend to be normal" as Lianne Holiday Willey puts it.
That, and so much of this gender pseudo religion lends itself very well to autistic traits. We often look for an explanation for why we don't fit in with our peers (and often prefer to hang out with the opposite sex, people from other cultures, or much older or younger people), one of the biggest and oldest autism forums is even called Wrong Planet, because we often feel "alien". In the 2000s, with the beginnings of the autism acceptance and autism self advocacy movements, some even liked to think we were a more evolved species of human, since we're better suited to some jobs and life in the modern world than some neurotypical people. I think it was just a sort of pride thing rather than being serious, but that sense of being apart and alienated is a common one.
And wanting to understand social skills and study them consciously rather than naturally pick them up. I used to draw Venn diagrams of social interactions and groups of people to remember what was appropriate to do (eg you can hug friends and family, and talk about personal matters with them; you can talk about personal things with your doctor but you can't hug them, etc). And when I see these endless Tumblr posts of different classifications and categories of "genders" (really just personality traits and social behaviours), I think, that sounds familiar!
The one that really chilled me was Diane Ehrensaft talking about how pre-verbal children (or non-verbal autistics) could express a gender identity. She talked about a little girl pulling hair clips out of her hair and throwing them on the ground; a little boy unsnapping his romper "to make a dress" (or a khameez or dashiki, it's not as if men only wear bifurcated clothes) and having a tantrum. I don't think those were tantrums at all, I think they were autistic meltdowns. We have very heightened senses and we hate the feel of certain textures and discomfort; I used to have meltdowns, like panic/anxiety/rage attacks if I were put into clothes with fabric that set off my sensory issues (much appreciation to @Babdoc for putting up with me and letting me wear soft joggers and leggings when I was a little girl!) or if we were taking my neurotypical sister to the hairdresser which I avoided because of all the noises, smells and people in my personal space. Nowadays I just cut my own hair or go to a barber where it's faster, but I can absolutely understand little autistic boys hating someone in their personal space cutting their hair. Not because they're "really girls in the wrong body" and want Disney princess hair (as if every girl does), but because they're just perfectly healthy autistic kids. They need to be listened to and need support to gradually get accustomed to the world and learn about it, and learn techniques like breathing exercises or mindfulness or ways to work with their autism to get the benefits of it and mitigate the downsides. It's a lifelong process and it's not a quick fix, but it's so worth it. And the world would be dull if everyone's brain worked the same way! :)

Thingybob · 20/08/2020 16:04

Thank you for speaking out Suffrajester and please continue to do so. We need autistic voices as identity politics doesn't allow neurotypical people to speak up or if they dare they are quickly dismissed.

So what do your statistics mean on an individual level?

I noted you quoted 1.6% for the prevalence of autism in the general population rather than the 1.1% that Simon Baron Cohen recently used but just want to say that both of these figures include people across the whole autistic spectrum. In my opinion autistic people shouldn't all be grouped together as there are two very distinct subgroups, those with classic autism that also have a mild to severe intellectual disability who are unlikely to be in mainstream education and those without an intellectual disability who previously would have received a diagnosis of Aspergers or high functioning Autism. It is estimated that autistic people are split roughly 50/50 between these groups. I've mentioned these two distinct groups because it is almost exclusively the later group that are vulnerable to gender ideology so the 1.6% (or 1.1%) is likely to be an over estimate and maybe 0.8% (or 0.55%) is the figure for the vulnerable population that we should be using?

So my rough figures say

About 800, 000 children are born in any year (400,000 girls)

Number of (high functioning) autistic girls: 400,000 x 0.8% = 3200

Number of autistic girls referred to GIDs in any year: 1800 x 35% = 630

So the chance of any (HF) autistic girl being referred to GIDS is 630/3200.

1 in 5

I find that statistic staggering and it doesn't include those 17 years and older who would be referred to an adult service or those who are treated privately.

ChattyLion · 20/08/2020 16:09

Suffrajester Flowers Babdoc Flowers
This just brilliant.

Suffrajester · 20/08/2020 16:18

That's a frightening number. Where is the 1800 figure from, is that the number of girls at gender clinics?
That would make sense, yes, when it comes to teenage girls presenting with ROGD, whose parents are largely supportive of them just being gender nonconforming girls (and whose parents may well be autistics themselves), they tend to be high functioning autism spectrum in mainstream education.
I'm not sure if they're the entire cohort, given that Mermaids has been claiming medical transition can cure autism (or that gender dysphoria can be misdiagnosed as autism and hence transition can resolve anything that appeared to be autism, their presentation wasn't clear which they were claiming) - younger, pre-teenage autistic children tend to be the target for "autism cures", since they haven't had the time and experience to learn some coping mechanisms and techniques that teenagers have, so they tend to present the most severely and parents want a "cure", so I think they'd be more susceptible to parents pushing for it while high functioning autistics would be susceptible to ROGD. I'm on my phone at the moment but will look into the numbers and papers more when I'm back at my computer. It's an interesting point to think about.

ArabellaScott · 20/08/2020 16:22

Flowers Suffrajester. Thank you, that was a powerful speech and quite shocking to hear in the context of historical eugenics. I hadn't thought of it in those terms - it's given me much to think on.

You must be very proud, Babdoc. Smile

Not sure where 'Mumsnet strangers' fit on the Venn diagram, but I feel like offering both of you a virtual hug.

Thingybob · 20/08/2020 16:28

Yes the 1800 is from GIDs figures, they have had about that number of girls referred for the last 3 years.

Melroses · 20/08/2020 16:34

Nettle tea - I know someone very into NAS, NHS and Girlguiding and was surprised by the instant and vehement hatred she showed when I mentioned Nic Williams, naturally giving no reasoning at all for it.

Having heard the 'education' given by such organisations, it is not surprising that some people fall for it. (I have just been reading about the home-selling techniques of a certain very expensive US vacuum cleaner company and it is similar - I have seen it described as a cross between a timeshare sell and testamony). However, I would have thought those experts in autism organisations would have had sufficient confidence in their own knowledge and work and expertise to see through it.

Suffrajester - I have heard of the extreme male brain hypothosis. I think my friend has always been quite invested in this idea as her son is quite severely autistic and always shown the classic car/train obsessions and, as an almost adult, will not accept any present he thinks should be for a girl. I think it is a comfortable explanation for some. But, as you say, it ignores girls who do not fit in with this.

OhMsBeliever · 20/08/2020 16:45

Oh, that's great, I will join the Facebook group. I asked on another gender critical Facebook group I was on if there was a group for GC autistic women, but there wasn't, and I never got round to setting one up.

youkiddingme · 20/08/2020 19:49

Your daughter is awesome Babdoc

Wonderfully enlightening, thank you Suffrajester.

Cake Flowers

OP posts:
youkiddingme · 20/08/2020 19:51

Wow, thanks for breaking the stats down Thingybob - that's jaw dropping.

OP posts:
Knoxinbox · 20/08/2020 20:42

Following

rogdmum · 20/08/2020 21:02

I'm planning to draft letters to autism organisations, thanking the ones who are supporting autistics on this and questioning/confronting the ones who are supporting our sterilisation, and will share in the group so we can agree on wording and the like. Lovely to meet other autistic women and friends :D

Suffrajester Thank you so much for saying you will do this. Many parents like myself have tried to communicate with the big autism organisations but we have been ignored. My daughter is one of these autistic adolescents caught up in ROGD. I hope these autism charities will be more inclined to listen to you.

I was at the event at the Mound and heard you speak - well done and I hope we hear more from you.

Gwynfluff · 21/08/2020 07:21

Thanks for an interesting thread. Tania Marshall also seems to have commented on this aspect of autism, especially in girls. Michelle Moore has also commented on the ROGD/ autism correlation. I was also shocked at the old Mermaid’s lists for signs your child is trans that were actually signs of ASC. We are on an investigation waiting list for one of my teens. Though she is resolutely not GC (though no ROGD). It needs stating and repeatedly.

I would say, though, to a poster stating that the idea that the only things out there for teens girls are pink and fluffy is way off the mark. Loads of access to politics, documentaries, tv programmes that show a diversity of female characters. Main fashion trend is the 1990s oversized look - lots of sweats and Ts and mine have embraced lounge wear. Though I think there is a dark underbelly of male centres porn defining the sexual culture. But it’s a much more rich and less male popular culture than I had as a teen.