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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender is not a social construct

123 replies

SheWhoMustNotBeHeard · 17/08/2020 17:20

A very insightful interview with Debra Soh, the Canadian scientist on Triggernometry. She talks about the research in differences in male and female brains, trans people's brains being more female if they are tw and more male if tm but that results are confounded by their sexuality. She talks about transitioning children and why the affirmative approach is harmful.

She also disagrees that gender is a social construct. I didn't really understand what she was saying tbh. She didn't say what is was either. Can someone clarify it for me?

OP posts:
NeurotrashWarrior · 18/08/2020 16:55

As far as I was aware inebriati, that only happens in cases where there's a female and a male twin? I've only read about it in Rippon's book where she describes exactly that.

NeurotrashWarrior · 18/08/2020 16:59

IQ tests have been shown to only test a narrow field of intelligence. And as a standardised test, likely to include more aspects of problem solving that, due to gendered nature of educational toys, peer pressure interests etc, more men may have had experience with, purely as a result of how stereotypes play out in education.

DreadPirateLuna · 18/08/2020 20:03

IQ tests don’t exist ‘apart from society’ either.

Never said they did. Lots of factors influence scores, including nutrition, culture and socialisation. But it is at least interesting that men perform both better and worse on them.

And as a standardised test, likely to include more aspects of problem solving that, due to gendered nature of educational toys, peer pressure interests etc, more men may have had experience with, purely as a result of how stereotypes play out in education.

Which doesn't explain why men are more likely to have scores much lower than average.

And IQ is not the only area where this greater male variability happens. Men are of course taller on average than women, but they are also more likely to be much taller or much shorter than average, while women cluster more around the mean.

HoneysuckIejasmine · 18/08/2020 20:09

I'm a female with a male twin. He's better at maths, I'm better (than him) at English and arts but not exactly the most erudite, I just like reading and can play some instruments. He's a software developer and I'm a chemistry teacher. 🤷🏻‍♀️

MrsJamin · 18/08/2020 20:40

Not sure what your point is @HoneysuckIejasmine?

HoneysuckIejasmine · 18/08/2020 21:08

Neither am I really, but people were speculating about testosterone in the womb, male and female brains and STEM... We were in utero together, albeit different amniotic sacs, and exposed to the same hormones. 🤷🏻‍♀️

TheWordOfBagheera · 18/08/2020 22:15

Huh, why did my post from earlier get deleted? How odd.

nepeta · 19/08/2020 00:56

@NeurotrashWarrior

IQ tests have been shown to only test a narrow field of intelligence. And as a standardised test, likely to include more aspects of problem solving that, due to gendered nature of educational toys, peer pressure interests etc, more men may have had experience with, purely as a result of how stereotypes play out in education.
Boys play tends to fine-tune the abilities of three-dimensional mental rotation, to give one example. Traditional boys' games do that, computer games do that. So there's quite a bit of practice which was invisible until people thought about it.

One study had girls play a computer game aimed at improving those scores and just a week playing that game raised the girls' scores on the three-dimensional mental rotation.

And yes, IQ tests are narrow. They were created to find out which children can manage normal schooling, initially (by Binet), and later they have been used for various purposes, many focusing on those who score in the lower tail.

One problem with crude comparisons of the test results across countries is that they are used for different reasons in different places, and the people selecting themselves for the test (when they do select) are not necessarily similar groups in all countries.

IQ tests do not measure creativity or memory or some other similar aspects of intelligence.

On the greater male variance in test-taking: This, too, seems not to necessarily stay constant. Some US tests show the results of aptitude tests become more similar in the distributions by male and female test-takers over time.

I am also interested in how guessing affects the final distributions in various test, because men and boys are more likely to guess than girls and women who are more likely to leave the answer blank. Depending on how the tests are marked different risk-taking could explain some aspect of greater male variability..

Onestepup · 19/08/2020 01:26

If a brain is in a woman's body it's a woman's brain and always will be. If a brain is in a man's body it's a man's brain. If the person doesn't happen to conform to societal stereotypes it doesn't mean their brain is the opposite sex.

NeurotrashWarrior · 19/08/2020 06:37

Honey, that's the point - there's so many different people and brains based on genetics as well as environment that for every x example, you'll find a z example!

HoneysuckIejasmine · 19/08/2020 06:47

Interestingly, we consider my brother to be the odd one out as for several generations, everyone who worked was a scientist - various sectors but he's the only one without bio/chem/phys a levels.

I do not consider pink/blue brain to exist. I find the notion that sexes have innately different brains dangerous, because it leads to one or the other being considered better than the other, and we all know how that'll end for women.

I consider my science ability to be nurture - it's the family business as it were - it requires a base level of intelligence, but I was definitely encouraged to channel what I had towards the sciences. I wanted to do psychology at uni but my parents were against it because "it's just common sense and statistics, not science". I don't necessarily agree with that but definitely more traditional science was encouraged.

NeurotrashWarrior · 19/08/2020 07:06

That's really interesting nepta, thank you!

I can't find the link annoyingly as it would be really helpful in this context, but a report showing all the pupils taking GCSEs and a levels and their sexual was extra stark in its sex split, I think in 2017/18

Art, languages and drama mostly taken by girls and the stem subjects and IT taken by boys.

That's not due to pink and blue brains! But concerning that both sexes are still so divided.

I know an art educator who's been aware of the lack of boys taking art at gcse and a level for some time and has been working on approaches to encourage more boys to participate. Some of it she feels is that a lot of the art activities do not appeal to boys. My feeling is that they've been into gendered activities from an early age (I've seen it in my own boys, I've balanced it but peer influence starts young) and a lot of the art activities are very neat and narrow, plus I've noticed craft kits are overwhelmingly 'pink'. (I'm an art primary specialist.)

If learning a language increases the size of your brain and changes areas of it as measured by scans, including if you start at a later age, how much impact would years of gendered experiences growing up change it? Is that why a TW's brain has similar features (iirc in very small studies)?

www.theguardian.com/education/2014/sep/04/what-happens-to-the-brain-language-learning

NeurotrashWarrior · 19/08/2020 07:16

Which doesn't explain why men are more likely to have scores much lower than average.

Dread, I agree that there's something odd / interesting about this; I teach in an sen school and we always have a much much higher percentage of boys. Our OTs say they mostly work with boys in mainstream, and I know from working in mainstream, you'd generally refer more boys than girls to SALT. Often, not always, the summer born boys. I do wonder about the Y chromosome sometimes; I believe they've decided that this is why men can fare worse with coronavirus than women, something to do with less copies of certain genes.

Biology is different and binary between the sexes and in the brains in terms of the pituitary etc; this is different to expression of characteristics, personality, preferences, talents and skills.

merrymouse · 19/08/2020 15:22

I do wonder about the Y chromosome sometimes; I believe they've decided that this is why men can fare worse with coronavirus than women, something to do with less copies of certain genes.

And the issue isn't just the Y chromosome.

A condition like 'fragile X' will usually affect males more severely than females because in females the other X chromosome may override/compensate for the chromosome that carries the disorder.

Shelkins · 22/08/2020 21:58

Gender identity only came into existence in the 1950s. For two million years, the absence of being able to differentiate one gender from another wasn't an issue. In less than a hundred years, a problem has been manufactured that is highly disruptive to everyday life. Language is being corrupted: pronouns can apply to either sex, plural pronouns can apply to singular beings with singular verb forms; men can have a cervix and women can have a prostate; male-bodied men with full male genitalia are classifying themselves as lesbians, but female-bodied women with full female genitalia are not classifying themselves as gay.
Meanwhile, discussions abound about the meaning of the word "gender", which is becoming meaningless. This, apparently, is progress. Never have the woke been more asleep, living in a dream-like state of reality denial.

MrsJamin · 23/08/2020 11:20

Gender identity was a concept in the 1950s?🤔

OldCrone · 23/08/2020 12:38

I think the idea of gender identity originated with John Money and the horrific experiments he did on a boy who had irreparable damage to his penis due to a botched circumcision. The boy was told he was a girl and raised as a girl by his parents. But that was in the 60s not the 50s.

Shelkins · 23/08/2020 13:35

You can read about John Money here:
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1468-0424.2010.01615.x

Thingybob · 24/08/2020 12:57

For anyone interested the first chapter of Debra Soh's book is available on Amazon via their look inside feature.

I've gone on to buy the full Kindle version and am liking her logic so far.

sultanasofa · 26/08/2020 16:14

Just listened to this, thought it was very good.

Great to hear from a scientist who is familiar with the research and whose views are based on evidence. Maybe not everyone would interpret the data the same way, but that's fine. That's science.

This is the sort of well-informed, objective discussion we should be hearing in mainstream media. The triggernometry boys are great and I'm happy they're providing a platform. I don't understand why these issues aren't getting a wider airing.

IheartJKR · 09/09/2020 15:16

Well, I just finished the book and while initially it kept my attention, it soon veered into bullshit. And bullshit without receipts at that.

Who was her dating advice aimed at 15 year old girls?? Mind you I know 15 year old girls who are much more sophisticated than Soh appears to be.

masculinity has been unfairly pathologized. Sexual and physical violence are viewed as extreme forms of masculinity, when this is completely unfounded. Men’s behaviour is, to some extent, the results of female sexual preferences.

Well she can fuck right off with that. Frankly I would expect an A level psychology student to have a more robust argument.

IheartJKR · 09/09/2020 15:18

From a brief survey of my straight male friends, the more progressive and feminist a woman proclaims she is, the more she prefers dominant, masculine men.

Hmm Must be true then, I mean...if your mates said so??

NearlyGranny · 09/09/2020 16:41

I have one of those brains that is good at spatial stuff and I probably should have been an architect or something but I failed maths. I can look at things and know if they will fit and how to arrange then in a space. It mostly means I always pack the luggage in the car. It's supposed to be a male thing. 🤷🏼‍♀️

On the day of our last house move, I also had DH and two removal men telling me our tumble dryer would not fit in the utility room cupboard, no way, no how.
"I think you'll find it will - please bring it through and offer it up "
Its successor is still happily in residence in the cupboard; there were inches to spare!

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