Can I have a sense check on this please?

[SenselessUbiquity]

I have worked for 25 years in an industry that involves boxes and lots of heavy stuff. When I started out, all teams had a coordinator or a junior, and I was one. I lugged boxes in and out of dusty cupboards, literally climbed shelves, ran up and down stairs with big lumpy things, day in day out. I also answered phones, typed and filed, set up meetings by phone etc.

25 years on i my industry, junior staff members are very scarce, if they exist at all. We all have computers and look after our own diaries and admin. But the heavy stuff still needs to be moved around.

I'm pushing 50 and a lot less able for all this than I was. At our last trade show, I was expected to carry heavy boxes quite long distances on foot into our stand. It's my job to set up the stand - it's my product and I am the designer and the way the stand looks is my responsibility - but the lugging about was really, really hard for me, especially as I never really recovered from SPD.

The fact that birth injuries are involved (in my case) makes me think about the fact that a middle aged woman with professional experience lugging stuff about on her own would once have been thought unacceptable, and now is not. I think this is another "ha, you wanted equality" PA dick move by men who once had the workplace to themselves.

I know that some men are injured and can't lift and carry; some women are powerhouses. (I was, once!) But there was once a convention that people who look like me were at least asked if they needed someone to lift and carry.

Am I being precious about this?
WWYD?
Is this a feminist issue?

(thoughts triggered by the other thread about men being allowed to assault women now)

I don't think of it as a feminist issue, probably because I am one of the few relatively fit people in my office, and most of the blokes have bad backs.

Or is it a feminist issue because you feel less comfortable about asking for help?

I wouldn't say it's a feminist issue at all, it is a getting older issue.
Tbh after 25 years of heavy lifting of items and the transport of them to the various places they need to be, it's taken a toll on your body.
Perhaps it's time to seriously think of adding a new member of staff be it male , female or gender fluid !

It’s not a feminist issue because a male designer going to a conference to showcase his own product would also be expected to either carry stuff or hire someone, regardless of injury or disability.

It’s crappy but it sounds like you’re self-employed, in which case you do need to hire an assistant.

Male or female, why are you company not providing appropriate equipment for moving heavy items? The way you describe the requirements of the conference it doesn't sound like things have been assessed and organised properly.

It sounds like an issue I would take up with Occupational Health to find a workaround or appropriate equipment for transporting heavy items.

I had a very similar experience. In my case, it was an edict from the directors that, if manual labour is being done by a team, more senior members of staff must get involved to show they're not above getting their hands dirty and encourage a less rigid sense of hierarchy. While the idea seems rather fair, it's hard to not feel resentful when you have a heavy box pressing into your chest and stomach, remembering how you had to do it on your own all those years ago.

In the end, it was beneficial because it lead to senior members of staff pressuring my employer into purchasing some very nice powered trolleys, some of which even lift the platform up to the loading/unloading height.

Could you think about other options such as portable trolleys? I work in a profession that was traditionally male, but now more women have entered. I’ve noticed a definite change in recent years as the women my age are now getting older. Much more thought is going into finding ways of doing stuff that doesn’t require brute strength or physical fitness. There are many ways around things if you look for them.

Not sure how sexism relates to this, other than that it is an example of why “equality of opportunity” doesn’t really work when that means women fitting in to work patterns set up by men, for men.

I'm in H&S in a male dominated industry involving heavy lifting. I'd call it a H&S issue rather than a feminist one. You should have completed manual handling training and be provided with an aid where possible such as a trolley. Depending on the load even one of those cheap blue Ikea ones would be better than nothing, but ideally something better. Speak to your H&S lead about it and ask for a workplace assessment. They should have completed risk assessments for each element of your role. Equipment should be available to both sexes if required.

We do recognise and train that there is a strength and safe load difference between the sexes.

An example of the guidelines can be found here in a
chart

thanks
the reason why I think it is a bit of a feminist issue is that none of the thinking has been done, risk assessments, trolleys etc, and we're expected to muck in and get on with it, and this has more of an impact on mine than it would on different kinds of bodies.

Next time I will think ahead and make sure that I know how far and how heavy things will have be lifted on the day - it will be seen as being a fusspot though

The thing is, it can be a feminist issue. It's harder to explain to a male manager about stress incontinence or prolapse than it is to use the excuse of a bad back.

the reason why I think it is a bit of a feminist issue is that none of the thinking has been done, risk assessments, trolleys etc, and we're expected to muck in and get on with it, and this has more of an impact on mine than it would on different kinds of bodies.

My gut reaction is this is more of a "your company doesn't know the rules about health and safety and appropriate risk management for heavy lifting" problem than a feminist problem.

Nearly 20 years ago, as a newbie at the big company I worked for, we had an induction course, which covered health and safety in offices (trip hazards, glare on screens, all the usual stuff in a desk job). The trainer made sure he asked "does anyone here have a job that involves lifting?" Two men said yes. They were immediately booked in for an extra half day of training on how to handle lifting/moving stuff safely.

That's what happens in a company that takes its health and safety obligations seriously.

A trolley sounds like a bare minimum for doing your job safely.

I think it is a feminist issue tbh, as it's pretty frequent to have ongoing problems after enduring labour. (I've also never really recovered from SPD. If I carry heavy things I can feel my pelvis giving way and sometimes I can't walk properly the next day). How common is this? I'd hazard a guess lasting damage after pregnancy of one sort or another is pretty common?

I was brought up in a feminist household and would laugh at the idea of men wanting to carry stuff for me. But I was young and fit.

And, when I got pregnant, I ignored the warnings about not picking up heavy stuff, as I was used to ignoring such "silly" warnings directed at women. Then I hurt my pelvis carrying a heavy bag and had SPD for the rest of my pregnancy and realised that, actually, not picking up heavy stuff when you're pregnant is good advice. It was only after I was in pain that someone explained to me that when you're pregnant you have the hormone "relaxin" coursing through your body - which is great for loosening ligaments up prior to labour, but the tradeoff is you're more likely to damage them.

The SPD came back with a vengeance on my second pregnancy and I've never really recovered from it.

I find all this really difficult to get my head round: On the one hand, I'm fervently against the idea of women being treated like delicate, incapable, infantile little things who must be protected by the manly men from such "dangers" as walking next to traffic, opening doors, not being the first to be seated at a table (the horror!!).

But now I understand what a toll childbirth can take on your body, I do see there is some logic in not expecting women who may be pregnant or who've had kids to carry heavy loads. It would certainly make my life easier if I wasn't expected to carry heavy things. But then if advocate for that, are we right back to women being perceived as being delicate creatures? Especially as you can't really ask women if they've ever been pregnant before offering to hold their bags.

I reckon we need to recognise what a trial birth is and give any women who does it a fucking medal, and recognise the bravery and fucking grit women have for enduring what we do. Delicate flowers, my arse! But it would be nice to be respected for our war-wounds in a similar way - say - a veteran is. And for any fit person (male or female) to offer to carry other women's bags if they're of an age where they might have been pregnant - but not in a way that infantilises us.

It's a health and safety issue. If a man couldn't do the heavy lifting he was expected to do, I would advise him to ask for the support he needs to do his job properly. Be that an assistant, a trolley, whatever is appropriate. Come on OP, you can explain that you have health issues, you don't need to go into detail. Or you could go into glorious technicolour, while maintaining intense eye contact at all times, and watch them squirm.

@needaMNnamegenerator - I feel so much of what you are saying!

You are all right in lots of ways, of course. Maybe the real issue is that I have worked for a lot of crappy / scrappy companies where any sort of difficulties with doing anything at all from the "wrong" people are perceived as that person being a whiner, a general wrong'un. Part of trying to change careers I guess. God I hope I can.

I've spent too long in an industry full of bullies and liars and I really want to do better for the last 20 years of my working life.

I work as a mid 30's manager with a 50's woman and a 60's woman

They are both expected to do some heavy lifting as part of their job

BUT

I do their INDIVIDUAL risk assessments

I take into account their health (50's something has arthritis in her knee) and how we can manage the load.

Trollies, splitting the load, not putting heavy items high etc.

I value my team. Lifting is part of the job but only a small part. I don't want them to be off because of a manual handling injury

You should be valued not mocked

It's a health and safety issue. If a man couldn't do the heavy lifting he was expected to do, I would advise him to ask for the support he needs to do his job properly. Be that an assistant, a trolley, whatever is appropriate. Come on OP, you can explain that you have health issues, you don't need to go into detail. Or you could go into glorious technicolour, while maintaining intense eye contact at all times, and watch them squirm.

This.

And it is also a feminist issue, OP, because you have an injury caused by pregnancy and it is being ignored.

Good luck. Employers should not allow work to damage employees’ health.

... and this has more of an impact on mine than it would on different kinds of bodies.

Thinking about this, it sounds like your company set up would preclude less able bodied people working there. Does the company have a dispensation for hiring people with disabilities (which I’m pretty sure doesn’t exist)? Or what would happen if a current employee had a life changing accident?

And as other OPs have said your company needs impact and risk assessment and manual handling training in place to protect your health and them from work place accident claims.

Its primarily a health a safety issue. Please do ask for proper risk assessments and occupational health to come out. I aldo agree there is a disabled issue and a feminist angle. Whilst men may have an injury and shouldnt be lifting and do need health a safety applied properly too, the chances are the boxes are a more suitable weight for average men to carry. I dont get why we have to pretend men and women are physically identical and the impact of stuff is the same.

Its primarily a health a safety issue. Please do ask for proper risk assessments and occupational health to come out

It is entirely a health and safety issue. It is not a feminist issue.

The part of it that's a feminist issue is that since the problem wasn't foreseen, for whatever reason, once a woman points out she had trouble with it you just know that the chances it'll cement stereotyping are way too high.

I'd be willing to bet that's why OP neither asked for help nor complained. That's what makes it a feminist issue.

Would that we lived in a world where she was as comfortable pointing out the problem as would most dudes who'd hurt their backs.

@quixote9

The part of it that's a feminist issue is that since the problem wasn't foreseen, for whatever reason, once a woman points out she had trouble with it you just know that the chances it'll cement stereotyping are way too high.

I'd be willing to bet that's why OP neither asked for help nor complained. That's what makes it a feminist issue.

Would that we lived in a world where she was as comfortable pointing out the problem as would most dudes who'd hurt their backs.

No it is still a health and safety issue.

Add to that for many of us our pension age is going to be 67 or 68. Work can be tiring for lots of reasons. How are we going to keep going? Or is the government’s plan that people will eventually just retire early on sickness grounds?