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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Can someone help me understand how these lyrics are being seen as female empowerment?

197 replies

QuentinQuarantino · 15/08/2020 22:22

WAP by Cardi B and Megan Thee Stallion.

Lyrics.

The video, predictably, is surgically enhanced T&A with celebrity cameos providing additional surgically enhanced T&A.

It's being lauded as celebratory of female sexuality and empowerment by lib fems such as Lena Dunham.

I am only(?) 40 and don't consider myself an old fart by any means but I just can't accept that this song (lyrics and video) is anything other than women perpetuating a toxic male view of women as nothing more than receptacles for their dicks.

Hypersexualised, pornified, emphasis on attaining material goods based on how well you perform sex acts.

I know, I know I can just ignore and not be affected but I've always been a huge fan of pop music and seeing this shit so mainstream is just depressing. And as a mother of a daughter it makes me feel queasy.

OP posts:
AlbusSirius · 15/08/2020 22:53

OK, I'm officially an old fart and not ashamed to be so.

50 shades of grey has a lot to answer for, as has "lib-feminism" and the entire instagram "please your man" trope.

AlbusSirius · 15/08/2020 22:55

Quite apart from the fact that children download and listen to this shite Hmm

DeaconBoo · 15/08/2020 22:59

There's a thread on that song already www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3995901-The-song-WAP-does-not-deserve-the-fawning-plaudits-NSFW
... unsurprisingly, given that it was written to be talked about!

Binglebong · 15/08/2020 23:03

I couldn't read it. I don't consider myself a prude but that was just deeply unpleasant.

SeriouslyRetro · 15/08/2020 23:03

I think the support is coming from the place of ‘he can (and has for the past 30 years) so can she’

Is it tasteful? Probably not. But I think it’s about ‘equality’ in representing their version of their sexuality, when their male counterparts have been comfortable to do it for a long time.

It’s about the ‘as the mother of a daughter...’ message. Do you feel queasy for your son? For the fact that hip hop, rap and pop music has been sexual since the rock and roll revolution?
Why is Cardi B more responsible for being a role model to your daughter than Lil Wayne is to our sons?

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 15/08/2020 23:05

Yuck

ContentiousOne · 15/08/2020 23:05

It's not empowering.
It is everything you stated in your OP.
We live in a pornified culture that rewards lyrics like these with attention and accolades.

CheeryTreeBlossom · 15/08/2020 23:07

Wow. I don't know what I expected when I read the lyrics, but not that...

"I wanna gag, I wanna choke"
I follow the wecantconsenttothis Instagram account where they are campaigning against the normalisation of women being choked. It directly links that attitude to the increase in women being assaulted during sex.

Yes woman are entitled to pleasure during sex and to not be "slut-shamed" but that doesn't mean we need to stoop to the same crass language of male artists. Saying how you earnt the ring on your finger with your body, I don't see how it's empowering, when a man saying the same would be sexist.

But then I'm 30 so maybe already past it.
I am starting to despair of what my daughter will grow up to deal with.

Can someone help me understand how these lyrics are being seen as female empowerment?
noblegiraffe · 15/08/2020 23:07

Feminism is now doing exactly what men want you to do but pretending it’s your choice.

ContentiousOne · 15/08/2020 23:08

And yes, I spend as much time dissecting the misogyny in lyrics with my son as I did critiquing fake lyric empowerment with my dad. Hello, it's feminist chat, wtf do posters think we're doing with our kids.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 15/08/2020 23:08

I used to like all sorts of bands that had suspect lyrics

Not that fucking suspect!

ContentiousOne · 15/08/2020 23:09

DD not dad

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 15/08/2020 23:10

Actually like...i still like them

And now my children are older i dont have to throw myself at the volume switch like a mad thing

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 15/08/2020 23:10

@ContentiousOne

DD not dad
I did wonder
CheeryTreeBlossom · 15/08/2020 23:12

To clarify I worry for my daughter not because I fear Cardi B would be bad a role model for her.

I fear her growing up in a misogynistic society where a women saying she wants to choke on a guy's dick is considered empowering, and women who don't go along with being choked and basically sex objects for men are accused of kink-shaming (see attached image in my previous post) or being prudes.

SeriouslyRetro · 15/08/2020 23:13

@CheeryTreeBlossom

Wow. I don't know what I expected when I read the lyrics, but not that...

"I wanna gag, I wanna choke"
I follow the wecantconsenttothis Instagram account where they are campaigning against the normalisation of women being choked. It directly links that attitude to the increase in women being assaulted during sex.

Yes woman are entitled to pleasure during sex and to not be "slut-shamed" but that doesn't mean we need to stoop to the same crass language of male artists. Saying how you earnt the ring on your finger with your body, I don't see how it's empowering, when a man saying the same would be sexist.

But then I'm 30 so maybe already past it.
I am starting to despair of what my daughter will grow up to deal with.

I think saying we shouldn’t stoop to the same crass language of male artists is about othering/limiting what women can do.

I don’t expect people who dislike rap/hip hop as a genre to suddenly consider this song to be a masterpiece. It’s legitimate to dislike the culture.

The backlash is against people who love rap and hip hop, and will recite the lyrics to far cruder songs/male rappers while driving around in their cars, but object to this song on principle of it being ‘yuck.’

ContentiousOne · 15/08/2020 23:14

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer

I used to like all sorts of bands that had suspect lyrics

Not that fucking suspect!

People can like songs. That's fine. I'm not in denial, say, about the lyrics in some of my favourite K Flay songs. But I'm not out there trying to sell them as female empowerment either.

I'm anti-censorship. Artists can write/perform what they like, short of direct incitement to violence. But I get to call out b/s as b/s. And this song as female empowerment? It's the biggest load of regressive b/s I've heard in recent times.

It's a porn product. It's for making money. That's all it is. It's also, imho, a shit song.

BoomBoomsCousin · 15/08/2020 23:14

It’s not what I’d call tasteful! But I can see an aspect of female empowerment in that it seems to be unapologetically stating that they (the artists) are themselves sexual goddesses in the way men in that genre talk about themselves as sexual gods. And it also demands of men that they gratify the sexual needs of the artists in the way that men of the genre have previously demanded women gratify them.

I’m a bit past the loud shouty stage of life and think there is more to be gained by partnership than lording it over others. But, as SeriouslyRetro says, within this genre this is very much women demanding to be on the same footing as men. What’s sauce for the goose etc. and that has a stamp of empowerment to it within that cultural context, even if lots of people (including me) don’t want to be part of that subculture.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 15/08/2020 23:15

The backlash is against people who love rap and hip hop, and will recite the lyrics to far cruder songs/male rappers while driving around in their cars, but object to this song on principle of it being ‘yuck

I do not like rap and hip hop 🤔

I resent my yuck being used in that manner

ContentiousOne · 15/08/2020 23:15

@CheeryTreeBlossom

To clarify I worry for my daughter not because I fear Cardi B would be bad a role model for her.

I fear her growing up in a misogynistic society where a women saying she wants to choke on a guy's dick is considered empowering, and women who don't go along with being choked and basically sex objects for men are accused of kink-shaming (see attached image in my previous post) or being prudes.

This.
RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 15/08/2020 23:16

@CheeryTreeBlossom

To clarify I worry for my daughter not because I fear Cardi B would be bad a role model for her.

I fear her growing up in a misogynistic society where a women saying she wants to choke on a guy's dick is considered empowering, and women who don't go along with being choked and basically sex objects for men are accused of kink-shaming (see attached image in my previous post) or being prudes.

Exactly
ContentiousOne · 15/08/2020 23:17

I'm in the loud and shouty stage. There are genuinely good, non pornified artists out there, including in rap/ hip-hop genres. FFS, this song is commercial pap, besides anything else.

SeriouslyRetro · 15/08/2020 23:21

I think it needs to be framed within the culture it comes from. Much like an all female punk band from the 70s shouldn’t be held to a higher moral standard than the sex pistols.

No one expected their parents to enjoy any punk, they thought it was all terrible. But would you feel it was a bit rich if young men with green Mohawks disparaged ‘the female sex pistols’ for being disgusting?

ArabellaScott · 15/08/2020 23:22

Ew.

On the plus side, reminded me to do a Kegel.

AlbusSirius · 15/08/2020 23:26

Yes, I worry for my sons that this is expected from them.

But I worry a heck of a lot more for my daughter, that it's expected of her, to be the one who will be hurt, choked, tied up and spat on. And then expected to loudly proclaim her enjoyment Hmm.