Help - looking for reliable stats on violence against trans people

[crunchermuncher]

I wonder if anyone can help - I've been discussing the need for women only spaces with a friend. He is supportive however seems to have bought the narrative that trans people are more at risk than women.

Where does this come from?
I have been searching for stats about this for days. I have found info on fair play for women about murder rates which seem broadly the same between the 2 groups but of course this doesn't capture other forms of violence and abuse.

Can anyone link me to any studies?

Has this belief come from women not being a minority group (we are an oppressed majority) and therefore are somehow less deserving of support?

NearlyGranny good point about misogyny not being a hate crime.

It really depresses me that society views women hating as natural. That's the message when we don't legislate against it.

Ask him to provide evidence of his claim - there isnt any.
There are no reliable statistics on violence based on the sex of the offender or victim, they are recorded by self identified gender not sex.

''Women more likely to have experienced sexual assault
The majority of victims were female, with approximately 560,000 female victims and 140,000 male victims. Women were nearly four times as likely as men to have experienced sexual assault in the last year''
(3.4% compared with 0.9%; Figure 3, CSEW Table 1).
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/sexualoffendingvictimisationandthepaththroughthecriminaljusticesystem/2018-12-13

The number of female victims has risen dramatically, and these figures were collected before lockdown when they rose again;
www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/13/female-homicide-victims-england-wales

In the UK trans people are the group least at risk of murder;
''Fortunately in the UK transgender people are very rarely victims of murder and are at no more risk than the average person living here.''
fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/trans-murder-rates4.jpg

fairplayforwomen.com/trans-murder-rates/

If he says he 'doesn't like the source' he is playing you. The source is official statistics; the website is merely reporting them.

@Justjoinedforthis

No I know, it just surprised me from that data! I am mega gender critical but I find the race to the bottom of who has it worst quite frustrating. I personally think that in the toilet scenario many men would be more likely to batter a man who is trying to live as a woman, as they would excuse it as just a fight, not ‘woman beating’. And I hate that in this debate I know have to add something like “not to deny the extreme prevalence of male violence against women”.

Yes, more men are murdered than women. Which sex is it that murders the men? Which sex is it that murders the women? Men need to sort themselves out.

Let us know how you get on, Cruncher? You'll find out whether your friend is open-minded and rational or just one of those confirmation bias seekers who only accept data that fits their existing beliefs!

No I know, it just surprised me from that data! I am mega gender critical but I find the race to the bottom of who has it worst quite frustrating
I personally think that in the toilet scenario many men would be more likely to batter a man who is trying to live as a woman, as they would
excuse it as just a fight, not ‘woman beating
And I hate that in this debate I know have to add something like “not to deny the extreme prevalence of male violence against women

Its been the same for some time, men are definitely worse off in the violence department than women, but this is fwr so we discuss fwr stuff. The thing in common with violence against men and women is that men are the biggest perpetrator of said violence. Maybe they should club together and try fixing whatever it is that makes men violent.

In most cases going by anecdotal data, transwomen are "battered" by men for going into the ladies loos. Presumably that neanderthal thing that men have going on.

I hate having to ever so carefully choose my words and having to write around the houses to not get pronouns wrong. The convoluted sentences that we make are terrible to read.

I don't HAVE to come up with the info - but I'm the one that wants to discuss it. I'm the one that feels strongly that the prevailing perception is incorrect. And as a logical person, it bothers me not to be able to back up my position with robust data

On the recent transgender day of awareness (I forget the actual date) there was a huge thing about 300 trans people murdered in the last year. That was worldwide.
The ONS will have the stats for other murders in the same period in the UK only and it's similar every year. Hovers around the 400 men per year and 220 women per year.

My apologies, crunchermuncher. I thought I had RTFT, but I just read your posts again and realised that I had not read this paragraph in your second post properly, so I had misunderstood how the discussion had come about.

And it was me complaining about the issue to him to start with, so I think the onus is on me to provide data. He 'read it somewhere' which I know is a rubbish answer and being a scientist he knows and acknowledges that too, but I'm in the same position of feeling like 'I read it somewhere' (that women are actually more at risk) but can't locate where. We can't all remember the source of every bit of info we've absorbed over our lives and we'd like to actually sit down and examine some data to see where this common belief has come from and whether it's purely Twitter nonsense about 'literal violence', or whether more to it than that.

Is it really important to know whether women are more at risk of violence from men than transgender people? There are many other groups who are also at risk of violence. Do we really need to compile a league table of who is most at risk of violence from men?

If he could prove that transgender people were more likely than women to be the victims of assault, how would this affect women's need for women only spaces? To me, it seems an irrelevance. Just because men are violent to another group doesn't mean that we no longer need women-only spaces, it just means that some other groups might also need protection from violent men.

In general men are subject to more violence than women
Ergo all men should be using the ladies ?

@midgebabe

In general men are subject to more violence than women Ergo all men should be using the ladies ?

This!

Also - at what point do you become a transwoman? What is your friend picturing?

I think people hear TWAW and their brain subconsciously categorises as ‘women - non threatening, less violent, smaller, weaker, feminine, needs protection,’ etc without thinking about what real life might look like.

On the recent transgender day of awareness (I forget the actual date) there was a huge thing about 300 trans people murdered in the last year. That was worldwide.

And are these murders because the person is transgendered? Are the perpetrators known to the transgender person?

I think these are important questions when, in relation to maintaining women only spaces, people make statements like trans people are more at risk than women.
If the murders weren’t because ‘trans’ then making women only spaces mixed sex won’t help the murder (or general male on trans violence) rate.

Channel 4 put this fact-checker out two years ago:

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

It links to some of the stats that are out there.

Thanks for all the links and info; very illuminating. We have yet to discuss it but I'll report back...

old crone no worries and thanks for your contributions.

There are many other groups who are also at risk of violence. Do we really need to compile a league table of who is most at risk of violence from men?

That's an interesting point; I've been mulling it over. I think what we need to do as a society is better understand who is at risk from whom (as a group, not individuals, NAMALT, etc) in order to develop policies that provide the required protections.

The problem we are now having with women only spaces is that TRAs are arguing for access to women's spaces using the trans people are at risk too argument, therefore anyone who opposes it is mean and wishes harm to trans people. It's where that ridiculous 'rights aren't like pie' statement falls down- when rights are in conflict they are exactly like pie - more for one group means less for another. I guess I'm trying to argue, with evidence, what exactly is wrong with letting non natal women into women only spaces. It will help me write to my MP (I wrote a couple of years ago, he made positive noises and forwarded it to the then minister for women and communities who ignored all my questions and basically told me off for being a Trfy McTrfface .

I did counter my friend's assertion that trans people are in need of similar spaces too (debatable in the light of all available evidence people have kindly linked to above) with "why is that women's problem to solve? " - he looked surprised for a few seconds and then conceded that that is a very good point (yay!) .

He also asked "Isn't this like the people who say 'all lives matter' any time someone mentions BLM?"

I argued that that is false equivalence: you can't compare women as a group to white people because you're contrasting an oppressed group who demonstrably need protection with a privileged group who don't. Furthermore, the law currently acknowledges this by making provision for women to be protected and TRAs are campaigning for this protection to be removed (not necessarily maliciously but as a consequence of asserting that TWAW). Emancipation of black people did not involve taking away protections from white people, it involved bringing the rights of the two groups into an equal footing.

He got this. There is hope.

He also is in complete agreement that penises do not belong in women only spaces, ever.

Thanks to all for your contributions. I really hope I haven't been offensive in the BLM analogy, I wouldn't have made it myself as a white person but I have shared it here as I was asked the question and have seen it before on social media and thought that it needed examining and refuting. Please feel free to point out if I've got that wrong from a POC perspective.