Gender and sex

[Jellyeggs]

I am still thinking about these a lot and while I don’t accept TWAW I think I am starting to recognize gender identity as a function of a highly sexist society which I don’t enjoy but I have to recognise as existing. Therefore I don’t think I am actually gender critical, as I do acknowledge that it is unbearable for some people to be expected to behave and be treated as their sex stereotype. I expect it is a huge relief to claim you are the opposite gender and then just enjoy living the stereotypes of that sex. In this respect I think non binary gender is a smashing identity to assume.

However I also see the difference between male and female sexed bodies as being critically important. I also don’t really care about post-op transsexuals in women’s spaces, but I accept that many people are deeply uncomfortable with that too.

I’m so conflicted and dreading the kids going back to their super woke school where ‘anyone can be a boy or a girl’ and being taught that their sexed bodies are pretty much irrelevant.

So can I acknowledge both gender identity and female sex as distinct and equally important classes? And am I totally alone in this thinking?

gender identity is criticized?

Here’s a selection of gender identities taken from Tumblr.

Which of them should be taken seriously?

...as I do acknowledge that it is unbearable for some people to be expected to behave and be treated as their sex stereotype.

I honestly don't get this. Ihave no sense of being expected to "behave and be treated as their sex stereotype". What does this even mean? I have never ever worn high heels, never wear make-up, never bother much with hairdos, ( try to keep my bushy head under control, and that's it!) wear trousers mostly, don't shave underarms or legs etc etc. I'm 68 and it's always been this way, and those, I suppose, are the "stereotypes" referred to. I feel utterly no pressure to do these things, never have. There is nothing unbearable about not following rthe supposed rules. I don't even think about it.
The only thing that identify me as a woman is my biology: I used to have periods, I was pregnant twice and gave birth twice, breastfed both children.

OK, I was, by choice, a stay at home mum for many years, and I guess that's what people call a 50's stereotype. But since that's the exception these days, it can't be counted.

I have a personality, and that's it. I have no idea what a non-binary mind is like. Nobody does, because we can't see into other people's minds.

I also don’t really care about post-op transsexuals in women’s spaces, 90ish% of transwomen have non/very little surgery at all.

I did think this, but then I read the Swedish study that shows no change of sex-patterned offending rates after SRS.

Thank you @CuriousaboutSamphire and @FloralBunting

Gender is therefore about society and gender identity is personal feelings based on what society has constructed including stereotypes of how men and women should behave, dress, talk etc

I have heard people say gender doesn't exist. Do they mean it's a construct or that they think it really doesn't exist?

Maybe it's worth starting a thread? Feminism and Trans issues 101: Everything you want know but were too afraid to ask. 😁

Sorry a few points - in my country self ID is legal and gender is protected, not sex. I know it’s different in the UK.

I know some people don’t understand that it’s unbearable to be gender nonconforming, but for some people it is. Just like some people are happy to have a male bodied person doing your smear and others find that unbearable.

I watched my own son figure out that if he wore a dress and held a doll in public people would laugh at him. I told him to do what he liked and not mind anyone else and he told me it was really unfair... and then he conformed. It wasn’t bearable for him to be non conforming and in the end he seems fairly comfortable with conforming “boy” stuff. So I accept that for some people things are unbearable that I might not understand.

I totally agree that social media telling kids they ought to be mortally offended by stuff like misgendering or questioning the official narrative is not at all helpful in learning how to “bear” things that we don’t like - and challenge them in a meaningful way.

It’s important to remember for sure that Most people just think gender is a polite Or more “inclusive” euphemism For sex.

The college I teach biology at isn’t incredibly woke (it’s a public school so there are working class folks here as well as wealthier), so I’m often having to correct their papers when they refer to the “gender” of a fruit fly or whatever. Most people also think “trans“ means someone who has had a sex change surgery, and that they have effectively changed sex by that surgery, so that you can’t even tell their original sex anyway.

OP your thinking is sound, though I too would Push back on the idea of a “non-binary identity” being useful. In my view all someone declaring they are NB does is to force everyone else into a Binary box. When I pushed back in this point in training I was told After being looked up and down by the male trainer that I “am pretty gender conforming So NB isn’t about me”. It’s so sexist.

I wonder if you could ask your friends whether using correct and simple language about women’s bodies is important? Maybe you could read Invisible Women together.

@Lamahaha I do think you are lucky if you are impervious to these stereotypes. If you can ignore all media showing how women "ought" to appear this is one thing, if you have never had anyone suggest how you ought to dress/present yourself you are very lucky. But if you have family members and colleagues, teachers and schoolmates directly telling you "behave more like this" (when they never tell boys or men this) or "girls aren't good at X" or "it's different for you, you're a girl" - well, all I can say is you have led a charmed life if you have never had this happen!

Even if you have the hide of a rhino (mine is almost there!) and can ignore all these (let's mix our animal metaphors and go with "water off a duck's back" here), they still exist, and not everyone can ignore them, even if their response is irritation rather than compliance.

Most people also think “trans“ means someone who has had a sex change surgery, and that they have effectively changed sex by that surgery,
Someone I know well who has a PhD in a science subject told me this. I pointed out that it isn't possible and they looked flustered and appeared to be only just clicking that this is not a "change of sex".

Here’s the problem with respecting gender identity:

Start with ‘man’ and ‘woman’ as gender identities. What is a ‘man’? Well, they . What is a ‘woman’?

Oh. Well I don’t conform to those stereotypes.

Ok, we’ll create the category ‘non-binary’ for you as you don’t identify with either.

Well sometimes I feel like a man when I’m solving a maths problem but then I feel like a woman when I’m shaving my pits and wearing heels (thanks for the empowerment, Emma).

Ok, we will create the category ‘gender fluid’ for you.

Hmm, well I don’t like being in the middle or switching between the two, what does that even mean? I want to challenge gender.

Ok, you are ‘genderqueer’

I feel like the oppposite gender to my sex.

Ok you are ‘transgender’.

And on and on it goes just like Tumblr until we have 7 billion genders because people are mistaking personality for gender identity.

These explain how I have come to think about sex and gender - I don't believe in gender identity as a concept, as far as I'm concerned it's as alien a way of looking at the world as a religious one would be.

I have heard people say gender doesn't exist. Do they mean it's a construct or that they think it really doesn't exist

I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but there are a lot of different people who are doing the 'gender critical' argument for very differing reasons. Some people believe that traditional gendered expectations are a natural part of human expression and that trans ideology should be stood against because men should be masculine. Some people are part of this for free speech reasons.

Some people probably stand in the same corner as me but haven't really grasped the feminist views as I've explained them. We're all very different. I can only tell you what I understand from reading and experience.

I think it's easy to say there is no such thing as gender, because it's not a tangible, immutable reality. But obviously not everything is tangible or immutable. Feminists don't say gendered ideas don't exist. We say they are not neutral.

drspouse, how I dress just isn't a big deal for me. I dress according to the occasion: formal for a wedding, perhaps, or a swimsuit at the beach, but mostly loose lounge trousers at home.

But even if it is necessary to conform, it doesn't bother me. I go to India regularly and there I conform absolutely. I usually wear a shalwar kameez and a shawl, never bare my upper arms, never a T shirt or anything revealing. I dressed like this when I was a young girl as well, when I was in India. It's called when in Rome etc. I don't let my dress interfere with my "identity" whatever that is. My clothes are not me. I would never wear high heels because I think they are stupid and I have wide feet which just feel comfortable in flats! And I hate the feel of makeup, the feel of jewellery In fact I hate jewellery, never even wore a wedding ring! (Nice to look at though!)

I don't think I've lived a charmed life at all. I've had the normal amount of difficulties to get over. Never been rich, was a hippie, backpacked across continents, etc. I just never paid much attention to fashion.

I do conform to other cultures as a mark of respect. I would cover my head in Muslim countries for example, and did so when I was in Abu Dhabi recently ( went to their new mosque with a friend, the most beautiful building I've ever seen in my life! But you have to wear a headscarf.). I don't feel at all defined by clothes. I just like to be comfortable rather than stylish and nobody has ever made a negative comment about it.

As for ignoring media: yes, I do, absolutely. I don't read magazines or watch TV -- I don't even have a TV and have never bothered with fashion. It's really quite easy to be ignorant of trends! My daughter is similar, though she is more into fashion. Sometimes we wear each other's clothes.

When I was a hippie, my best male friend had hair almost down to his waist, and the guy I had a huge crush on had long black curly hair way beneath his shoulders!

I just like to be comfortable rather than stylish and nobody has ever made a negative comment about it.

I recant -- a close friend did once comment on my shoes. It was during my Birkenstock phase, and she told me how ugly they were. And I wear socks with sandals sometimes and once or twice I've heard negative comments about that. But I don't care. Sometimes it's too cold for sandals alone but too hot for shoes and socks. So, sandals with socks are perfect! Scandalous, I know.

Sex can either be a noun (naming biological difference between female and male) or an adjective (having sexual intercourse). The problem linguistically seems to stem from the adjectival use of 'sex' and the adoption of 'gender' to politely distinguish from this.

Over time, sex was used to refer to the act whereas gender was used to name biological reality.

Except that you can't use a socially constructed term that relates to social norms of femininity and masculinity to describe biological reality of sexed difference without causing huge misunderstandings and confusion. Misnaming for whatever weird social reason creates problems of understanding.

It is not surprising that this confusion has been exploited and it is now seen as the norm to use the term gender when really referring to sex.

I recently watched the new Bladerunner film and was disproportionately distracted by official birth data recording 'gender' as female and male. Even if you think sex is ascribed at birth, gender - based on conformity or otherwise to cultural/historical/social norms - can't be. There can be no female or male gender at birth. Sex is male or female, gender TBC.

And if 'trans' is an identity describing a self adopted describer relating to non-conformity with male or female gender stereotypes associated with biological reality, then so too is 'cis' an identity that has equal right to be self adopted.

I identify as adult female human. I choose to be gender fluid in my social presentation regarding clothes, hairstyle etc. And my behaviour will be gender fluid - I may do some cooking or some DIY. I quite fancy driving around on my John Deere lawn tractor with a can of cold beer today. DH can express his fluidity by doing the laundry and cooking tea.

Don't call me 'cis' when this is not my identity and I don't want to be reduced to stereotypes.

@Lamahaha have you seriously never, ever had anyone comment that you should be "less abrasive" or "don't tell people they are wrong" or "you'll catch more flies with honey" or "I didn't think you really wanted that work opportunity" or "I'm sure he didn't mean it like that, don't be so sensitive" or "girls can't run" or "girls aren't as good at science" or "I guess he just doesn't see dirt" or ANYTHING EVER that suggests that you should behave in a "womanly" way?

If you aren't affected by all the million and one messages about appearance around you - good for you. But being stereotypically "womanly" isn't just about appearance.

My speech is also gender fluid in that I adopt the speech generally associated with 'women' or 'men' as I see fit. But generally I try not to dominate or simper (even if both are an option) because I find these hinder communication and I am not a git.

@drspouse, no, actually, never, none of those things!
The fact is, I am NOT abrasive; I'm very soft spoken and have never, ever told anyone off for their behaviour or what they said; I do catch more flies with honey, and work opportunities I lost was because I chose to lose them in order to be with my kids, which was my decision.

But I made up for it in later years by being self-employed in something I truly love, and making money doing so.

I honestly can't remember ever being told I was too argumentative not even from my husband, when we had disagreements. I'm so laid back I'm almost supine! At the most, with my kids, who I do tell off now and again even now they are adults but that's my job! I'm only "abrasive" here on MN because I am so insensed by gender ideology.

And if you think I am not abrasive because I have been conditioned by my family: not true. My mum was a very outspoken and confident 50's feminist (quite famous in my country of origin) who raised me in a far too liberal way. When I wanted to a be a boy, aged ten, she let me change my name on my birth certificate, adding a name that could be a boy's, and I never played with dolls and liked animals and adventures. I was never girly or raised to be so.

But I am also naturally quiet and introspective. I love yoga and meditation and I'm the one in a group who hardly ever speaks. But that's not because of stereotypical gender indoctrination. It's because of my training in meditation, which, in its country of origin, India, is more a man's occupation. I prefer writing to speaking, and generally don't mind being in the background, observing rather than being the life of the party. Very boring for some, I know!

It's not that I deny that there are gender stereotypes; it's just that I believe we CAN look beyond them in our society and not feel oppressed by them, the way these genderists think is happening. Here in the West we CAN dress as we like, and that's been the case for decades.

@KeepOnKeepingOnAgainandAgain thank you and everyone else for explaining sex/gender/gender identity and stereotypes.

One thing I have noticed on Twitter (newbie) is that trans and their allies, when they can't answer a well thought out response by GC women, is they nearly always say white cis TERF. I understand why they say cis (and it doesn't matter what they say it IS being used as a slur now not a descriptor) and TERF but they nearly always add white. The chances are they are white as well so why bring it up? Why is a white women less valid? If I said actually I'm eg Chinese, would the comment be any more meaningful?

I think gender stereotyping has become a lot worse in recent years. I was a "tomboy" in primary school but I quickly conformed to the feminine stereotype when I saw how aggressively bullied the short haired GNC girls were at my school. The boys had an even worse time.

I do think we often make the mistake of assuming that men and women experience gender in equivalent, but opposite, ways. As @Lamahaha says, adult women can pretty much wear whatever they want without comment. However, men do risk being stigmatised for wearing feminine clothes or make up. Most of the trans/non-binary men seem to be wanting to express themselves in a feminine way. By contrast, most of the trans/non-binary young women seem to be attempting to escape from the sexualisation and objectification of their sex. These are very different things.

I think they add the "white" to insinuate closed minded privilege and rejection of difference, which is ironic in that so called TERFs are the ones arguing that anyone should be able to express themselves as they wish, but that does not alter one's biological sex. It's the "Karen" thing.

It's not that I deny that there are gender stereotypes; it's just that I believe we CAN look beyond them in our society and not feel oppressed by them, the way these genderists think is happening. Here in the West we CAN dress as we like, and that's been the case for decades.

I'm afraid I think you've led a charmed life!
Many people can't dress how they like - especially if their work requires a dress code. Or if their family expects a certain style of dress. If you are lucky enough to be impervious, you can turn up to a family wedding in DMs and paint splattered jeans like you wear every other day, but if you are sensitive to criticism, you probably won't, even if that's what you choose to wear every day.
And you are also lucky that nobody ever, even when you were a child, told you that girls behave one way and boys another, that you've never been in a work environment that rewarded men for being outspoken and women not at all.
I hope you notice when other women are told these things? And speak out?

@twoHopes I think that what people say has got better but what people do has got worse.
So nobody would get away with, now, saying out loud to girls that they aren't good at science, or standing by while a girl said it herself (as happened to me).
But the percentage of girls who dress in a less feminine way or have short hair has vastly decreased.

But if you have family members and colleagues, teachers and schoolmates directly telling you "behave more like this" (when they never tell boys or men this) or "girls aren't good at X" or "it's different for you, you're a girl" - well, all I can say is you have led a charmed life if you have never had this happen!

I don't recognise this at all. My parents certainly would never have said that sort of thing. I did have some sexist teachers at school - in particular my physics teacher who told my mother that I shouldn't be doing physics, because physics wasn't a 'girls' subject'. I wasn't there when he said that to her, but she told me about it, horrified that such a sexist specimen was teaching at my school, and called him a male chauvinist pig (it was the 70s).

As an adult, of course I've been the victim of sexism, like a sexist boss who thought all the female staff were there to be his personal assistants and do admin tasks for him, when he'd never dream of asking the male staff to do those things.

Gender non-conforming is the default position for literally everybody.

If you're female and don't wear make up every day or you wear trousers occasionally or have short hair or are interested in science you're gender "non-conforming".

If you're male and have long hair, are sensitive, wear eye-liner, like pink or purple, talk about anything except sports, you're gender non-conforming.

The idea that stereotypes should be given any weight at all has rightly been completely rejected when it comes to race but some people are suggesting that it should be given weight in law in ways which severely impact on women.

Many people can't dress how they like - especially if their work requires a dress code. Or if their family expects a certain style of dress. If you are lucky enough to be impervious, you can turn up to a family wedding in DMs and paint splattered jeans like you wear every other day, but if you are sensitive to criticism, you probably won't, even if that's what you choose to wear every day.

You seem to be confusing two different things here. When at work, or going to a family wedding, it might not be the time to go for maximum self-expression. Sometimes you have to wear a 'uniform' or a costume, as expected for the occasion or environment: a dress or smart suit for a formal occasion or for work, or 'modest' dress when visiting countries or places of worship where that sort of dress is expected.

For leisure, people can wear what they like, within the limits of public decency (nudity in the streets is not normally acceptable).