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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

An analogy for your consideration

22 replies

newrubylane · 04/08/2020 23:02

I start by acknowledging that many of us are sceptical that the concept of an internal gender identity exists. However, might it be possible to liken it to feeling yourself to be old or young. This internal sense of 'age' might be related to your actual age, or it might be nothing at all to do with it. It might be based on how you perceive yourself in comparison with your peers, social expectations or just simply how you feel mentally or even physically. You might choose to express your perception of your age through dress, interests etc. However, crucially, this has nothing to do with your biological age. The government and other agencies need to collect data about people's biological ages for obvious reasons (public health and services planning, pensions, etc); the government doesn't care whether you feel more 25 than 40. In a legal sense your age matters; how you feel about your age and choose to express it should be irrelevant as far as the needs of organising society goes.

OP posts:
Xanthangum · 04/08/2020 23:08

When I am an old woman I shall wear purple
With a red hat which doesn’t go, and doesn’t suit me.
And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves
And satin sandals, and say we’ve no money for butter.
I shall sit down on the pavement when I’m tired
And gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells
And run my stick along the public railings
And make up for the sobriety of my youth.
I shall go out in my slippers in the rain
And pick flowers in other people’s gardens
And learn to spit.

Warning by Jenny Joseph. There are times when you feel much older and wiser than your peers, and times when you feel like an idiot. That's all normal.

But good point

DialSquare · 04/08/2020 23:10

I don't feel anything relating to my physical self. I just am. I don't feel any different now to how I did when I was younger. My likes and dislikes and opinions on certain things may have changed and my body certainly has but I'm still just me.

PlanDeRaccordement · 04/08/2020 23:12

Both are merely fantasy, not reality.

SheWhoMustNotBeHeard · 04/08/2020 23:18

There are so many holes in that analogy that I can't even think properly.

All I can think of right now is the last part of Francis Aaron's song about man, bat, etc.

ContentiousOne · 04/08/2020 23:23

It doesn't matter. Might feel internally I'm 25 and entitled to say, enter my art in a competition for people under 30, but I'd still be bloody 49 and a cheat!

I'm free to feel 25. I'm not free to insist the rest of the world ignores reality. I'm free to wake up feeling 100 because of gender bollox wearing me to the bone; still not entitled to claim a pension, or ask for a letter from the Queen.

This isn't hard to grasp. There is an external reality which is material and observable, regardless of how I feel.

LockdownLump · 05/08/2020 08:40

I'm sorry, but I don't think that analogy is in any way comparable.

SheWhoMustNotBeHeard · 05/08/2020 08:49

OP, please take a look at this, especially about re: identifying as a different age.

Babdoc · 05/08/2020 09:51

One can “ identify” as any age, colour, species, sex, etc that one likes- but one has absolutely no right to insist that other people accept it as fact!
Oh, unless you’re demanding access to women’s spaces. Apparently that’s ok, and women should just shut up and give up all the rights they’ve fought for in the last hundred years.

Floisme · 05/08/2020 10:32

I think we claim to feel / look younger than we are because we have internalised the negative assumptions about age.
And I don't agree that how we feel about it is irrelevant. I think ageism flourishes because we don't challenge those assumptions nearly enough.

cheeseismydownfall · 05/08/2020 10:47

I think I get what you are saying, OP. That for most people, the 'feeling' of 'being your age' is something that we don't give much thought to - I am mid-40s, I look like I'm in my mid-40s, and I suppose society treats me like I am in my mid-40s, whatever that means. I do feel differently than I did in my 20s. So for me, my internal sense of my age matches my chronological, legal age.

But I'm sure we are all aware that some people don't feel they 'fit in' with their chronological age - for example, young people who feel 'old' and really struggle to relate to their peers, leading to a sense of otherness and isolation - especially when society places them in stereotypes about what they should like and how they should behave.

But, the obvious point is that it is labelling and stereotypes that are the problem, and that although I can acknowledge the difficulties faced by someone who feels 'the wrong age', the idea of being able to actually legal change you age, and insist that other people go along with it, is absurd, for such obvious reasons that we don't need to go in to.

So actually I think it is quite a good analogy.

bishopgiggles · 05/08/2020 11:34

In a legal sense your age matters; how you feel about your age and choose to express it should be irrelevant as far as the needs of organising society goes.

I get what you are saying, but age is intrinsically linked to mental development for a large chunk of life, so the 'legal sense' would become very complicated and the analogy breaks down.

Would we accept grown men expressing their age by not being able to toilet themselves, respect people as other humans with feelings and inner lives, not having object permanence? Being pre-pubertal? Being able to count beyond 5?

justoverthehorizon · 05/08/2020 11:46

how you feel about your age and choose to express it should be irrelevant as far as the needs of organising society goes.

so a 50 year old man could express himself as a 8 year old?

NearlyGranny · 05/08/2020 11:53

I guess we'd accept it, bishopgiggles, but they'd have to get on with it themselves and take the consequences. Not cleaning anyone's bottom for them if they're capable of doing it themselves but playact incapacity!

newrubylane · 05/08/2020 13:16

Thank all - mixed feedback, I see! I did think about it some more and I agree there are quite a few holes in it, it's probably not a great analogy overall. I was just trying to think around the problem in a different way.

OP posts:
WellIWasInTheNeighbourhoo · 05/08/2020 13:22

Didnt a transwomen claim in her trial that she identified as a 9 year old girl as a defense against the pedophilia charges against her?

thebridgehead.ca/2018/01/29/trans-age-pedophile-defends-himself-by-claiming-that-hes-trapped-in-a-nine-year-olds-body/

ncqtime · 05/08/2020 13:39

@bishopgiggles age is linked to mental development but then so is sex linked to mental development in relation to dealing with having a certain body, surely? So I don't think this would be a cause for the analogy to break down.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 06/08/2020 12:56

In a legal sense your age matters; how you feel about your age and choose to express it should be irrelevant as far as the needs of organising society goes.

The age analogy works for me, as a good example of how society should treat gender identity, which I think is what the OP means? Not how it does!

I'd say you have the right to express yourself as you like, as long as you don't restrict anyone else's rights -- and safety is a more fundamental human right than self-expression.
Other people have the right to express themselves as they like, including the right to disagree with you.
The law should be based on the rock-solid foundation of reality, not swayed by fashions or fantasy.

If you're middle-aged but feel 18 you have every right to dress like a teenager. Other people would have an equal right to laugh at you. That would be rude but not illegal -- democracy is in trouble when the state starts legislating against hurting people's feelings.

If you're adult but feel like a toddler, you have the right to wear adult-size baby clothes and pretend you can't talk. You don't have a right to join in playgroups because children need safety more than you need to indulge your fantasy. You can't change the birthdate on your birth certificate, because that would be falsifying a legal document.

If you're young but feel old, you can wear cardigans and play lawn bowls. But you can't claim an old age pension.

I think most of us would agree that's all fine. We don't give a damn what other people wear or what name they use -- which seem to be the only two criteria required for proof that someone is "living as the opposite gender", when they apply for a Gender Recognition Certificate.

I object to the many ways in which the law treats feeling you're a different gender differently from feeling you're a different age. It matters.

zanahoria · 06/08/2020 14:31

I am beginning to think that all analogies are pointless in arguments, all they do is preach to the converted.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 06/08/2020 15:39

I am beginning to think that all analogies are pointless in arguments, all they do is preach to the converted.

Hmmm, I tend to think the opposite. If it's an honest analogy, not twisting anything to fit your argument, it can make a point very clearly.

Vermeil · 06/08/2020 16:30

I can see just what you mean, OP.
Basically, how you feel or present yourself is utterly irrelevant when it comes to such things as data collection, health budget allocations etc.
This is one of the big misgivings I have about trans people being able to completely change their sex on official documents. Trans rights activists are so blinded by their need to feel validated in their gender identity that they’re actually shooting themselves in the foot. Give it twenty, thirty years. If we carry on down the road of magical thinking rather than helping people come to terms with the things they cannot realistically change, I predict that we’ll be looking at an increase in deaths from things like certain sex specific cancers, heart attacks and the like.

Durgasarrow · 07/08/2020 15:40

I think what you're saying kind of makes sense. I had a friend who, when she was young, said she felt she felt she was twice the age she was. But when she actually got to that age, she was entirely different than the image she had of what she would be like. Of course she was. She could not have imagined the life experiences that would have changed her over the years.

justanotherneighinparadise · 07/08/2020 15:44

I guess it’s like saying that some mornings I feel like a 70 year old when I drag myself out of bed but the government won’t be offering me my pension because if it.

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