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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Microsoft O365 gender bias 'checker'

23 replies

GrumpiestOldWoman · 04/08/2020 19:16

This is now being brought to our attention by my employer, urgh.

www.howtogeek.com/677694/how-to-check-for-inclusive-language-in-microsoft-word/

What was the grammar checker will now pick up when type 'spokesman' (and recommend spokesperson) or chairwoman (ditto chairperson).

To be fair I don't like 'chairperson/chairwoman' anyway (feels a bit the same as manager v manageress to me) but I'm uneasy about it.

OP posts:
stillathing · 04/08/2020 19:22

I think I'm alright with this! It's kind of the opposite of pronouns in email sign offs.

GrumpiestOldWoman · 04/08/2020 19:25

I worry about where it ends though, once everyone is expected to use it how long before their definition of what's acceptable starts to tighten.

OP posts:
midgebabe · 04/08/2020 19:27

Using gender neutral language is the opposite of forcing gender on people though

DialSquare · 04/08/2020 19:29

They don't mention sex apart from orientation so when they say gender it's hard to know if they actually mean sex. If not, I can't see how it prevents words that may be perceived as not inclusive of women. So it's the same old problem of confusing sex with gender.

ChateauMargaux · 04/08/2020 19:29

Ask them to read Invisible Women by Cordelia Fine and remind them that this inclusive language silences and erases 50% of the population.

LillianBland · 04/08/2020 19:30

It’s sex, not gender! FFS!

ErrolTheDragon · 04/08/2020 20:09

Neutral language is sometimes an excellent thing, but not always.

It's not a bad idea to do a check - there might be some term you'd not thought about which you'd want to change. But it should always be a matter for the writer to decide on.

Al1Langdownthecleghole · 04/08/2020 20:20

Well whenever I type Transwomen on here, my spellcheck prefers me to use 2 words.

BlueBrush · 04/08/2020 20:21

@LillianBland

It’s sex, not gender! FFS!
To be fair, before any of the current batshit gender identity nonsense - and before feminists used "gender" as a term for imposed social roles and norms - gender was a grammatical term. So I think that's just about ok. I think use of the word "gender" might count as one of those things for which you wish you could go back in time and intervene on. Who knew the word "gender" was going to cause us so many problems?!
BlueBrush · 04/08/2020 20:32

*What was the grammar checker will now pick up when type 'spokesman' (and recommend spokesperson) or chairwoman (ditto chairperson).

To be fair I don't like 'chairperson/chairwoman' anyway (feels a bit the same as manager v manageress to me) but I'm uneasy about it.*

I know what you mean OP. Back in the day I would have gone for "spokesperson" any day, but since there's been such a huge skirmish over the word "woman", I'm feeling differently about a word like "spokeswoman" now. I'm more inclined to use it, just to make a point, but I stop myself, because I don't want to play the game of the TRAs, and centre my gender/sex in cases when it's irrelevant. I'm interested to know what others think?

AgnesNaismith · 04/08/2020 20:35

I wish they would check for bias where it actually exists by analysing who speaks more in meetings, men or women.

Xanthangum · 04/08/2020 20:37

Personhole rather than manhole - weird.

Chair rather than chairman - ok, but check people don't think you are talking about furniture

Firefighter rather than fireman - absolutely

Actor rather than actress - well if you must.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/08/2020 23:05

I think the only people who call themselves "actresses" now are MTF trans people. Obviously.

CharlieParley · 05/08/2020 00:48

I think you're right to be wary, GrumpiestOldWoman. The usefulness of such automated checkers depends on the situation, how sophisticated they are and how they were programmed.

By now we have numerous studies showing that such programs are typically coded by men unaware of their conscious and subconscious bias who end up programming something that discriminates against women.

So I would use the checker if I had to but make my own choices.

Chairwoman for instance is an incredibly powerful word. Most boards continue to be chaired by men, chairman is the default for most people. And even if you do use "chairperson", most people picture a male chairperson. So to write chairwoman when the person is an actual woman or you write about a hypothetical chairperson is an important counterweight to our ingrained assumptions.

ChateauxMargeaux is right that this erases women. Caroline Criado Perez devotes a lot of pages to this whole issue in her book. It's another one of those things that masquerades as progressive at first sight, but turns out not to be when you dig deeper.

And yes, this whole movement to change biased language was started by feminists, but they did not know then what we know now - without changing minds, changing words makes little difference and the best approach may well be varied - sometimes adding female versions is more effective and sometimes a neutral term works best.

DidoLamenting · 05/08/2020 01:46

To be fair I don't like 'chairperson/chairwoman' anyway (feels a bit the same as manager v manageress to me) but I'm uneasy about it

Surely no- one uses the "ess" words these days other than Duchess, Countess, Baroness etc. which denote title/name not job.

There's no reason to use the "ess" words to describe someone's job (with the exception of Tiny Dancer's "seamstress for the band")

LookAtTheCahhOlivahhhhh · 05/08/2020 02:02

I feel like this could start off being used innocently enough, and be used against you later.
Programme it with 30+ pronoun choices, make it highlight anything considered a "dog whistle" etc.
Once the computer is telling you what to write, are the words even your own any more?

Removes tin foil hat

stillathing · 05/08/2020 11:06

I wish they would check for bias where it actually exists by analysing who speaks more in meetings, men or women.

So to write chairwoman when the person is an actual woman or you write about a hypothetical chairperson is an important counterweight to our ingrained assumptions.

Excellent points!

ErrolTheDragon · 05/08/2020 13:58

@stillathing

I wish they would check for bias where it actually exists by analysing who speaks more in meetings, men or women.

So to write chairwoman when the person is an actual woman or you write about a hypothetical chairperson is an important counterweight to our ingrained assumptions.

Excellent points!

Yes - that's analogous to the standard practice of referring to specific people as 'he' or 'she' , and using 'they' for unknowns, both singular or plural.
SerendipityJane · 05/08/2020 16:07

So do we revive "actress" and "comidienne" ?

DidoLamenting · 05/08/2020 18:43

@SerendipityJane

So do we revive "actress" and "comidienne" ?
No, why would you want to?
CharlieParley · 05/08/2020 21:39

@SerendipityJane

So do we revive "actress" and "comidienne" ?
Chairwoman is a position of power. Which is why I would use it.

That same meaning isn't carried by your examples. I do use actress because my native tongue genders all words, so to me that seems more logical. I don't use comedienne because it sounds pretty much the same as the male version and is a bigger to spell. But all of those are merely personal preference.

CharlieParley · 05/08/2020 21:39

^is a bugger to spell

My autocorrect is clearly too posh...

EdgeOfACoin · 05/08/2020 22:09

I don't understand what is wrong with actress. It is a perfectly good word.

We still have the award for Best Actress at the Oscars.

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