When 'Trans' becomes a synonym for being gay

[Justhadathought]

I was trying to find the thread which discussed Miriam Margoyles recent comments about JK Rowling and the trans issue, but couldn't locate....

Anyway, did anyone else watch her Australian travelogue, the second episode of which was on BBC2 last night?

She met with several groups/communities of aboriginal people ( 'First Nation' people) in Alice Springs, including a group who referred to themselves as transgender.

She asked " Are you changing from men into women, or women into men?" since she was obviously unsure.

" Men into women", they said.

" Have you sliced your dicks off yet, then; that's the least you have to do, surely?"

" No, and we not going to"

"Really?"

" Being transgender is just a feeling inside".

The scene then cut to a drag event at what looked like a gay night club. Miriam referred to it as a "drag show". It was a drag show. With performances by some of the men who she'd met earlier.

It certainly seemed to me that to be gay in many cultures is just not acceptable ( including aboriginal), and so coming out as 'trans' or as a 'ladyboy' is the only path available for people who want to express themselves freely.

Anyway, another thing which occurred to me was that many of her comments would automatically be seen as being 'transphobic' by the trans lobby. the bits about having to " slice of their dicks, at least", or about the " drag show". given how she has suggested that JK's ideas about trans are somehow 'old fashioned', she seems to have some way to go herself.

Is there an equivalent in such cultures of ‘man girls’? I’ve read before about gay men being accepted as trans in different cultures because of homophobia but have never seen anything about whether the same is true of lesbians

That awful BBC thing www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-53573764/pre-colonial-communities-history-of-gender-fluidity did talk about “aboriginal” culture being more accepting of people who weren’t what in 2020 is called “cis-het”.
But it did seem that these cultures needed an escape for people who weren’t “het” rather than meeting the modern “trans” definition.
(And the escape was usually only for male people).

Is there an equivalent in such cultures of ‘man girls’? I’ve read before about gay men being accepted as trans in different cultures because of homophobia but have never seen anything about whether the same is true of lesbians

A cultural practice called "bacha posh" encourages parents dress their daughters as sons for a better future. But often, it only makes life harder: www.nationalgeographic.com/photography/proof/2018/march/bacha-posh-gender-afghanistan/

These girls are not necessarily lesbians, though.

Now Setar is a 16-year-old who plays football and has a girlfriend who doesn’t care about gender. Her sister Ali, 14, has a box of love letters written by female admirers. At home, neither get up to help when their sisters and mother make meals and tea

Although it seems that some of the girls do end up in lesbian relationships. Interesting!

But as they get older and puberty reveals their biological gender, life becomes more difficult—and dangerous. The family has moved the family multiple times to avoid the harassment. On the street, people yell that they’re anti-Islamic and call them transsexual. Their father drives Ali to school so she gets there safely, and Setar stopped going “because she got fed up with being called names,” says d’Aki

When she becomes mature and older she learns that it is not possible for her to be a boy and nobody accepts her as a girl,” says Nasim. “This is a repression: ignoring girls’ ability and talent and rights. Denying the religious and Islamic rights of a girl is, in fact, an insult to the sex of a girl

In Iran it is illegal to be gay (they have the death penalty) but the state pays for gender reassignment surgery. Apparently many people don’t feel that they have a choice about transitioning which is very sad.

I read this novel which was about a lesbian couple in Iran (so obviously fiction but realistic).

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00BITACTQ/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1&tag=mumsnetforu03-21

" Have you sliced your dicks off yet, then; that's the least you have to do, surely?"

Aside from any views one might have on trans issues- what a horrible way of addressing the point.

Margoyles really is quite annoying. She's so determined to keep up the "I'm mad, I am/ I'm not going to be a nice old lady/ I'll say shocking things" shtick that she doesn't realise it just makes her unpleasant.

And don't lecture me on why should women be pleasant? Well why shouldn't everyone- rather than deliberately being unpleasant for the sake of it.

I agree with Dido that Margoyles is annoying. And all very Look at me! As I can't stand her I don't watch her or listen and she revels in being crude for attention but I wonder if she was actually adapting to local lingo there. Australians tend to be blunt and even crude which can seem shocking here. Germaine Greer has always been like that.

I never saw anything about what m margolys sad at the time about jkr etc. Wa it discussed on here?

There isn't anything particularly progressive about cultures that have multiple 'genders'. It is usually an indication of a society that has quite deeply embedded and strict codes about what men and women are meant to be like and allowed to do in their lives. If you fail to live up to those expectations or don't want to confine yourself to the rules allocated for women and men, then you are considered abnormal and probably viewed quite disparagingly. Such societies prefer to create separate categories to shove such individuals into. Usually it's homosexual men because anything that deviates from the standard heterosexual male is thought to be 'weird', but women can be affected too. Having another gender from what's considered to be a standard 'man' or 'woman' is a way for such a society to deal with such 'weird' individuals. They might be viewed with disdain, pity, wonder, reverence, hatred or a mix of all.

What the wokey folk don't understand is that it's not a "free for all, happy clappy, I'm an individual so I can do what I like and self-identify as I wish" scenario in societies with more than two genders. Each gender comes with specific roles and strict rules, responsibilities and expectations. If you take on a gender, you are taking on the responsibilities and expectations that have been set by that culture for that gender.

Biological sex is real and therefore every human society in history has, at a minimum, two 'genders' that correspond to man/male and woman/female i.e. it is based around heterosexual dynamics.

In Thailand, the men who take on the 'third' gender role, are expected to end up in the sorts of jobs that are usually assumed to be for women, like hairdressing or salon work, waitressing, factory work, show business or prostitution. What happens to all the 'kathoey' when they get old? You never hear about them once their youthful, feminine looks fade and they get old and wrinkled. There's speculation that many go back to 'living as a man' in their senior years. The vast majority retain their penis.

There are the Albanian Sworn Virgins. The expectation is that these women will not have children, which is a great escape route if you are a young woman and don't want to be stuck in the gendered role of marrying a man and bearing his children and leading a life of servitude to husband and family. It is also a way for daughters to carry on the family name, inheritance, look after parents etc. Again, the theme is that there are societal expectations that come with these genders. To get the 'freedoms' that come with being a 'man', they have to also adopt the clothing and responsibilities expected of men, and live a life of celibacy. (No transman changing legal sex to male then doing the most female thing by getting themselves pregnant and crowing about it!)

I don't have the details to hand at the moment, but in Africa, there is a culture or tribe where only men are allowed to be 'business men'. Women cannot do this. If a woman wants to run a business and the cultural practices involved in this role, she can adopt the 'gender' of 'business man' to do this, but on the strict condition that she does not get pregnant. Yet again, the idea behind third or fourth genders is that they come with their own set of rules and expectations that you are meant to follow.

The nonsensical modern phenomenon of transgender ideology in the West is such rubbish. Gendered roles and stereotypes are an interplay between society and individual. You can't just pick and choose your 'genders' in any of these 'exotic' cultures and societies. Western, democratic societies are the most progressive because apart from acknowledging the biological reality of there being only two sexes - most women and men are allowed to dress and behave as they wish, and get into any kind of profession or job. Yes there are still improvements to be made, and pressures on those who deviate from stereotypes, but overall, as an individual you are allowed to be who you are in Western society. This is not the case elsewhere where respect is given more towards society than the self-indulgent wishes of the individual.

Miriam is fab.

A woman who has had success in an industry that would not have naturally welcomed her.

A series she was in a couple of years back. They went to a dinner or golf club or something in America. She challenged a man on something he said. He was spluttering. He didn't know how to handle it. In his world. Women never disagreed. And he was certainly not disagreed with by older lesbian women who did not attempt to conform to prevailing female beauty standards.

I love her. She's properly amazing and has had such an interesting life.

I saw that on TV. She talked about how hard it was coming out to her parents. She went to a gay club. She's gay.

The criticism leaves a sour taste tbh. She has been out and proud for decades FFS. Now she's a bad person?

Read who she is and about her life.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miriam_Margolyes

She is a one off. And has always been who she is.

This thread. Some comments. Are really disrespectful to be honest.

Is the point here that all people are flawed, they have good points and bad, fans and detractors?

On the specific issue of trans and Jkr I think it’s fair to say she has been hypocritical or just doesn’t get it. I also think she says outrageous things just for attention/to feel relevant... saying she hoped Boris would die when he was in icu with corona for example. Did she really mean that or was it attention seeking?

I do think there is a double standard where women are praised for being outspoken to a man on tv for example, but called disrespectful for having opinions on here.

Despite not agreeing with much of what MM comes out with, I am glad she is not cowed into hasty apologies or cancelled for her views, I absolutely agree with her right to speak up for herself even if I think some of what she says is a bit silly.

Despite not agreeing with much of what MM comes out with, I am glad she is not cowed into hasty apologies or cancelled for her views, I absolutely agree with her right to speak up for herself even if I think some of what she says is a bit silly.

Same here.

I have issues with trans.

I have this thing where, if I look at something like LGBTQZ, I then try and strip away society and see if it makes sense. LGB makes sense without society, and you even see instances of it in other species. Trans though I'm not sure. Apart from it not being possible without surgical intervention. You really can't call something natural when you need surgery to perform it. And what are they identifying as? They are identifying as our 21st century perception of what a woman is. This isn't a real thing. It is a thing created by us. If our society was different, we could in theory have a very different perception of what a woman is. Possibly even a much more masculine version of a woman, because what men and women are is not a natural thing, it is a thing built by our society. So, if our perception of women was different, would trans people still identify?

I struggle I have to admit.

The criticism leaves a sour taste tbh. She has been out and proud for decades FFS. Now she's a bad person

i didn't start the thread with the intention for people to have a go at, or criticise Miriam Margoyles, but to point it how it is clear that in many cultures being homosexual or gay is just not an option; instead one must assume the role and garb of the opposite sex, or identify as a woman ( be 'trans').

But I also found it interesting, given her recent comments about JK Rowling's piece on women's rights/trans rights, that she holds just the same sorts of views and expectations herself of what 'being trans' implies.

Yes, she's an iconoclast and not into tribal identities at all, and on that score I have sympathy with her.