Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

2nd DD saying she is trans - I have also posted in LGBT children

35 replies

SupportPlease · 28/07/2020 00:53

I know this thread may be removed but I need some advice or an idea of where to get support, I have NC.

My DD1 (18) self identified as male about 2 years ago and last year changed her name by deedpoll. I probably haven't supported her/him as I should as I believe these gender identity issues are austism/anxiety related - there have been numerous attempts to get support through CAMHs and a diagnosis but after about 4 years we are still nowhere near and haven't seen anyone from adult MHS despite being referred to them when DD turned 18 in February.

We moved house in January and she now shares a room with 13 year DD2, first time they have ever had to share. Now, 6 months later DD2 has told me she is also trans - she says she hasn't always felt like this and might not always feel like it but wants to change her name. I do think there has been indoctrination by older DD who has social issues and spends about 18 hours a day talking to god knows who online.
I just don't know what to do, I feel like I'm walking on eggshells constantly with DD1 but DD2 has always been a very kind, easy going person and she has changed a bit since lockdown began. I can't separate them as this would not only be obvious but there is no other space for one of them to have, hence why they share. Any advice or signposting to support sites would be really helpful right now.

OP posts:
LonginesPrime · 28/07/2020 12:40

I can't separate them as this would not only be obvious but there is no other space for one of them to have, hence why they share.

They shouldn't be sharing.

Personally, I would let one of them move into my room and I'd sleep on the sofa, or I'd move one of them into the living room with their bed and stuff. I've had to do both of these things with DC with SN and its better than them sharing in that situation as it's not fair on either of them and not ok.

I would probably move the 18 year old into my room as it will be less upheaval for the younger one and older DD sounds like she'll eventually be moving to uni in term time.

Deathgrip · 28/07/2020 12:45

And, given the self identification (but even two females of those ages would be dubious), your two children should NOT be sharing a bedroom.

To be clear - if a male self identifies at female there’s no safeguarding risks, but if a female self identifies as male there is?

At what point in the sentence “I identify as male / female” does the risk change?

I’m sorry this is happening OP. I hope someone has some good advice for you.

BwanaMakubwa · 29/07/2020 23:54

Can I just say to some posters not used to autism in the family: generally speaking an autistic 18 year old is not the same in any way in terms of maturity and personal responsibility as an NT 18 year old. It's not as simple as saying "they are 18 and an adult so tell them to move out or take responsibility".
My autistic 18 year old is less equipped to look after himself in terms of personal responsibility than my 10 year old NT child. And there are no learning needs. He is just incredibly immature socially and emotionally, with a hefty side order of poor executive functioning (planning and organisation) and a lack of response to the pressure of social imperatives - for example to wash or tidy up after himself.

Autistic teens need a much more extended and involved sort of parenting in general than NT kids, and that doesn't magically stop when they turn 18 and suddenly become an adult in the eyes of the law.

calllaaalllaaammma · 30/07/2020 15:33

There's a podcast where the psychiatrist talks about transition and autistic children, I don't know if that is of interest to you, OP.

Marcus Evans - Psychiatry sits on a knife-edge

SupportPlease · 30/07/2020 23:14

Thank you @BwanaMakubwa, this is DD1 - I was surprised by her interest in university but it was for something she has an great (almost obsessional, as with other things) focus on. Sadly the reality of has become too much and the lockdown accentuated anxieties but has also limited the work we were going to do to try and help her prepare.

@calllaaalllaaammma thank you, I'll have a look for that.

OP posts:
DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 31/07/2020 00:05

And, given the self identification (but even two females of those ages would be dubious), your two children should NOT be sharing a bedroom.

Amazing. I would totally have identified as Male to get away from my sister, especially if it meant I got my mum’s bedroom. The plan gets foiled when the other sister identifies as Male too though, doesn’t it? Now both sex AND ‘gender’ are the same, so 🤷‍♀️

OP, can the eldest go on a sofa bed in the living room? Seems to me the most sensible option, especially as 18 year olds tend to go to bed last and you want to chivvy her off to uni anyway.

Re: DD2 - what’s going on with her right now beyond the trans stuff? Puberty? Social group stuff? Do DD1 and DS2 (the ‘boys’ in the household) suck up a lot of your time and energy? Does she have any sensory issues or body issues that make ‘boys’ clothes seem more appealing? (Baggy hoodies, hats to hide half her face etc) has she been sexually harassed at all (most early experiences of leery adult men come at this age, sadly). Where is dad? (no need to answer that to us, but I do think present/absent parents come into play in terms of identifying with a same sex/opposite sex parent). Has there been any trauma in the family (illness, violence, bereavement) before either of your DD’s cross sex identities started? Is there any room in your budget for therapy? I would recommend finding someone who will look at you all as a family unit, perhaps by primarily talking to you/supporting you (you might be able to access family therapy through the NHS but as you already know it can be hard to access any help due to massive supply and demand issues). Are either of the same sex attracted? Do they have friendship groups beyond the family? How about school?

Look up Sasha Ayad and Lisa Marchiano - both work with this particular FTM gender dysphoria presentation group and both have videos and essays online that you can access for free.

I’m going to find a post I made to another mother in a similar thread re: unpacking what was going on with my stepdaughter when she started a cross sex identity (she has since desisted). You need to go slowly slowly, so as not to give her anything much to clash with you over re: identity, but also set some boundaries and rules - all teenagers like to find the limits of what they can get away with, you need to show those limits without directly attacking the identity (especially as that will be perceived as an attack on both and they will gang up and encourage each other to dig in).

Even though this is a social contagion, both DD’s are going to have some sincere distress underpinning this. You need to demonstrate that you understand that their distress is real, you are just sceptical that the distress can be cured by transition.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 31/07/2020 00:12

Copied over from two of my posts this thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3953878-12-yr-old-DD-Gender-Dysphoria-sudden-announcement?pg=1

Are you familiar with functional behaviours?

They are most often discussed in relation to children with ASD or children who are misbehaving in school, but actually many of the weird stuff that kids and teens do can be assessed through the same lens.

The idea is that when a child ‘acts out’ in what appears to be an irrational way to adults, if you look carefully it is more rational than it first appeared:

This is an autism advice site, I can’t say as to whether it’s generally good for ASD advice but it was the clearest explanation of functional behaviours I found on the first page of google:

www.educateautism.com/behavioural-principles/functions-of-behaviour.html

If you think about these categories, what about a cross sex identity fits these that are relevant for your daughter?

As an example, using our own family:

#1 Social Attention
A person may engage in a certain behaviour to gain some form of social attention or a reaction from other people. For example, a child might engage in a behaviour to get other people to look at them, laugh at them, play with them, hug them or scold them.

A cross sex identity, or ‘coming out’ is an obvious attention grabber! In our case, we’d spent a year in and out of hospital with DsD’s seriously ill little step sister and her dad had started a new job while littlest sibling was in intensive care! So all eyes had been elsewhere for a while.

#2 Tangibles or Activities
Some behaviours occur so the person can obtain a tangible item or gain access to a desired activity. For example, someone might scream and shout until their parents buy them a new toy (tangible item) or bring them to the zoo (activity).

A cross sex identity is a great excuse for new things, clothes, bedroom decor, haircuts, even activities that might normally be stereotyped the other way (a sudden interest in ‘Male’ things might indicate a need to be near the male parent more often).

#3 Escape or Avoidance
Not all behaviours occur so the person can “obtain” something; many behaviours occur because the person wants to get away from something or avoid something altogether (Miltenberger, 2008).

There were two big ‘avoidance’ situations with my DsD - firstly, she was catcalled by an adult man for the first time (and dressing as a boy in baggy everything minimised the risk of this reoccurring) and secondly, she was being subjected to lesbophobic bullying in school changing rooms (‘don’t watch me getting undressed you gay peeve’ etc) and as a transboy she could change in the disabled loo. Also, going to visit the school counsellor whenever she felt ‘dysphoric’ was an efficient way to skip her least favourite classes/be elsewhere when homework needed to be completed

#4 Sensory Stimulation
The function of some behaviours do not rely on anything external to the person and instead are internally pleasing in some way – they are “self-stimulating” (O’Neill, Horner, Albin, Sprague, Storey, & Newton, 1997). They function only to give the person some form of internal sensation that is pleasing or to remove an internal sensation that is displeasing (e.g. pain).

Big saggy hoodies and an ever-present woolly hat obviously gave her some kind of comfort (as well as avoidance).

I did 6 months of multi systemic therapy with my eldest (who was wild around 14/15) and with that, the aim is to teach you to become your child’s therapist (so that when the service inevitably withdraws you aren’t straight back to where you started). Lots of what I learned then has been just as useful when dealing with my DsD’s gender distress. Equally, my youngest has regular pulses of psychological support (3 sessions and a break) to deal with her experience of serious illness and a lot of that is also transferable to my stepdaughter- it’s mostly exercises around self esteem and resilience building.

All this long-established, expert understanding of child behaviour and development seems to get chucked out of the window in favour of ‘affirmation’ by orgs like Stonewall, Mermaids, GIRES, Allsorts etc (and all the other smaller LGBT youth groups, many of whom were trained by the four I named anyway).

Gender distressed children are being let down left right and centre at the moment, either through a lack of curiosity in therapy or a lack of evidence in medical interventions - so whether you are a cheerleader of transkids or a skeptic like me, we should all be demanding better.

Just to clarify (although I do hope it’s already clear) ‘attention seeking’ is not used by child psychologists as a negative term, just a neutral observation.

It’s perfectly understandable that 13 year old child in my DsD’s situation would exhibit attention seeking behaviours - kids need (and deserve) attention, and sometimes family life gets messy and attentions are directed elsewhere.

I’ve heard several stories of kids with what is (controversially) described as rapid onset gender dysphoria having a seriously ill or disabled sibling or a seriously ill/recently recovered parent, or a recent bereavement.
This is an emerging pattern, described by a number of international professionals who have workEd with ROGD children. As we know, actual research in this area is being blocked and/or ‘discredited’ (discredited by rumour, not facts!)

Children who are engaged in functional behaviours are doing it largely subconsciously - sometimes they might repeat something purposefully that originated by accident (see using a repeat excuse to leave a stressful classroom as an obvious example) but they aren’t generally thinking ‘if I do this, I will get this’.

With the cross sex identity stuff they simply stumble across a ready-made phenomenon that ticks a lot of desired results boxes - they feel lonely/excluded/not like other girls/hate their bodies/hate the shitty gendered expectations that society pushes onto girls from secondary age onwards and then they come across a YouTuber or a tumblr blog (or a classroom session on ‘gender identity’) that seems to make sense of those feelings. The pleasing results from the functional behaviours reinforces the the initial false premise (that you are really the opposite sex).

I think (and I am NOT a professional) that the way to pick it all apart is backwards - what is the desired outcome?
And why is that outcome satisfying?
So what is the root problem that the functional behaviour is resolving?

And how does it all fit with what every single one of us already knows about puberty and peer groups?

(And then we have to not take it too personally if some of the answers point in our own direction - rejecting one’s own mother, no matter how fantastic she is, is a hugely common part of teenage girlhood, this is just a novel, late 2010s/early 2020 way of doing the same!)

ChattyLion · 31/07/2020 00:19

Fantastic insightful posts DuLanga thank you for sharing.

SupportPlease · 31/07/2020 17:49

@DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong Thank you so much for your posts and links. Your words already make so much sense to me and our situation and I know we are going to have a long time of working together to get through this. DD2 is already talking more - she has just recently started periods which is having a negative affect and I think she has a crush on her best friend, adding to her confused thoughts of who she really is. The isolation seems to have pushed her to imitate DD1 as they have spent do much time together, including chosing to become vegan because DD1 did - she actually admitted last night that she's not sure about that and probably wouldn't have done had she still been going to school/socialising more.

Dad is around but I have always been the emotional support, probably self-enforced, as far as school/doctors/friendships is concerned. He does sometimes feel excluded and DD1 does not like him presently. Part of that comes from her inability to understand his 'silly' side (ie making jokes or just going on daft), she doesn't enjoy silly behaviour and never has.

Thank you again everyone.

OP posts:
DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 02/08/2020 12:36

You are very welcome.

DD2 might not be keen on Dad’s humour, but worth having a think to see if his lesser responsibility is a contributing factor? Ie, if dad, two brothers and a big sister that identifies as a boy all seem to have less responsibility/more freedom than you, mum, it might be part of the puzzle as to why DD2 sees a male cross sex identity appealing?

Periods/changing body shape seem to be a massive catalyst for ROGD girls, so not affirming until they’ve had some time to adjust seems to be very useful. We followed advice given by Sasha Ayad, which is to slow everything right down, ie ‘we realise this is very important to you but this is SUCH a big change we need some time to really think about it - let’s review the request in 6 Months time...’

We also put up a hard no to anything that had the potential to cause lasting damage until adulthood, so no binders, puberty blockers or testosterone, but yes to an expensive, carefully fitted minimising sports bra, yes to a free choice of ‘boys’ clothes, and then slow negotiating on everything else.

After almost a year she has tentatively desisted, as she found the upkeep of ‘boy’ to be a bit boring and limiting.
We’ve retained a very neutral stance on anything Male/female coded out of concern for pushing her back into a box, so we make absolutely no comment re: eyeliner or a boot with a small heel, and never say anything looks pretty/beautiful etc, instead we encourage with words like ‘striking’ or ‘expressive’.
She’s kindasorta got a ‘girlfriend’ for the first time and realising some girls will like her because she is a girl, not in spite of her being female has also been a big help.

It’s really important to get her dad and brothers on board (big sister will hopefully pick up with you are doing with little sister and will likely be very resistant at first but you might find it also helps her re-examine the self-imposed limitations of presenting ‘boy’) and make sure that the girls aren’t being given chores/rules that the boys aren’t (and that they realise that while your DH doesn’t have the same Household jobs and tasks you take on, his life isn’t actually free of responsibility and that he does other stuff that compliments your tasks).
My DsD thought being a teen boy was ‘safer’ than being a girl, but when her dad spent time explaining how he was bullied physically (rather than perniciously) got pulled into unwanted fights by male friends and was expected to leave school early to work with his dad painting and decorating (and sometimes even skip school to do it) she realised that being a boy wasn’t necessarily preferable, just shitty in a different way (and at 5ft 4 that she would likely never have the physicality to cope in an all-male friendship group).

The boys that ROGD girls expect to become are rarely based on actual boys, and instead it’s all other transboys/transman youtubers etc. That’s OK if you live online or have a large (social contagion?) transboy friendship group but it’s unsustainable in a job/outside of school/education etc. Helping them to understand this, carefully, without giving them something to rail against or dig into, is really important, imo.

I’m not a professional, of course, just another parent who has (hopefully) managed to navigate some of this stuff. If you can afford a therapist (for you, who is able to help you understand family dynamics and support you in creating an environment that gives your daughters the opportunity to desist without losing face, I would very much recommend that.

The support sources upthread (Bayswater/OurDuty/TransgenderTrend/ParentsofROGDKidsUK et al) will be able to direct you towards professionals who are experienced with this and will not judge you. Many will be able to provide online sessions on a sliding scale so don’t completely rule it out even if budgets are tight (as they are for most of us right now).

New posts on this thread. Refresh page