Is this "gender identity"?

[Kaiserin]

What does it mean to "feel like a woman"?
For a long time this made no sense to me, and sounded it was all about embracing gender stereotypes. However there seems to be (according to some) a distinction between gender identity (in your head) and gender expression (the way you dress and act).
So what's that womanly feeling? Do I (a female) even feel womanly?

Then it clicked: when a man is mean to me, I feel threatened, but that feeling is only as deep as how much I fear that man may be able to hurt me (otherwise? shrug, whatever). When a woman is mean to me, I doubt my self a lot more ("what's wrong with me?"). The man is "other" (still human, but distinct). The woman is a mirror, another self, and her rejection hurts my own sense of identity and adequacy.
I'm not saying that feeling is right or wrong, or that everyone has it, but (I've just realised), for me, it's real (and a bit shameful, as I thought I had stronger "mental boundaries". I guess deep down I'm still a little girl trying to please my mum...)

So, assuming that feeling is "gender identity"... trans women see men and feel they are "other", they see women and feel "that's another me!"... And if a woman says "sorry, but I don't see you as another me", the trans woman's feelings get hurt... But is that any different from anyone being rejected by the "peer group(s)" they identify with?

I'm a female with not very feminine interests. I identify with females based on our shared lived experience, due to being the same sex. I also identify with people (often male) who share my interests. I have experienced rejection from both groups due to my otherness. But surely I can't force people who don't identify with me, to identify with me? I can expect kindness based on our shared humanity, but surely I can't demand control on their own feelings, or request that they lie about such feelings?

So... unrequited feelings of identity are real ("I identify with you, but you don't identify with me, and it hurts"), but they are not any more a hate crime than, say, unrequited love.
... Does this idea I just got make sense to anyone else?

Nope. Doesn't make sense to me.

The reason I feel differently about a man who is aggressive towards me is simply because he is much more likely to escalate to actual physical violence and possibly sexual violence than a woman. That's it.

I don't feel "betrayal" over a woman being aggressive to me because "she's like me..."

That's not how it works.

Men are simply bigger, stronger, statistically more prone to violent attacks and come with a built-in rape weapon. That's it.

Women are a massive group though. How would one woman being mean change your identity anymore than one person who was five foot four or one person who was British or whatever.

All identities depend on the interplay between the self and the others around that self as well as the general environment. The gender theory stipulates (orders us all to have this) that gender identity does not depend on that interplay at all but is some abstract, inner feeling, and that it doesn't depend on the sex of one's body, either.

I am sure that this way of framing the issue makes sense for transgender people, but I don't think it makes sense for the vast majority of people. My identity as a woman is certainly very much based on the fact that I live in a body others easily can clock as female, and that many of my life experiences are influenced by that body and the way others treat me because of it.

More generally, I am not at all sure that everyone, or even most people have such a thing as a gender identity, but that is because there is no real way of looking at the concept or doing research on it or whatever. But when I visited one trans rights site I read there that I have a gender identity, even though I don't think so, because I would feel devastated if I woke up tomorrow morning in an opposite sex body.

I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't wake up devastated, though I might worry about my husband's reactions to this sudden change. But it would have no effect on my inner identity overall, and it would be really interesting to see if orgasms truly differ by sex or if suddenly men started actually hearing what I say in meetings.

The dangerous slide in the use of this concept is that now my whole female existence is erased because my identity is not supposed to be about living while female but only about some abstract inner feeling.

Identity is an individual thing. A statement of knowledge about one's individuality.

The only way for a group - and gender is literally a group - to possess a communal, shared identity would be for that identity to have a set of defined characteristics common to every individual in it.

Eg, I am an introverted person, my identity is introvert, here are the characteristics of an introvert which I possess...
You are also an introvert and you possess those same characteristics.
Now, we're a common group, with a group identity.

But with 'female gender identity'?

You could put 100 women in a room.
Their sex is female
But they all have different personality traits.
So which of the 100 personalities gets to be the 'female gender identity'?
Perhaps 10 of the 100 women claim their personal identity is THE female gender identity.
But they all have different personalities! What are the shared female characteristics? Do they even differ from male characteristics? In what way are they female? How can this group gender identity 'female' be 10 conflicting things? That's not a group.
And what does that mean for the identities of the other women? Not female?

When women say "I have a female gender identity" they mean, I have a body, the word for it is female so whatever personality I have must be the 'female gender identity'.

But personalities are not gendered. They're human. Female is a reproductive class, not a feeling or personality type, and not an identity separate from one's sex.

*Barracker", I agree. I think the reason for all the hundreds of new gender classes is for the very reason that the concept of gender now refers to a personality type, so almost any existing label will be found insufficient.

I guess deep down I'm still a little girl trying to please my mum

Just because you're seeking approval from women for whatever psychological reason related to your childhood, it doesn't mean there is a "gender identity" that is distinct from one's biological sex.

It makes sense that your experience of rejection by women hurts on a deeper level if you have unresolved issues with your own mother, but that sounds like its to do with the fact that your mother is/was a woman than to do with the fact you're a woman.

I'm a woman. But for me, the sense of rejection from men cuts far deeper as I have daddy issues.

So... unrequited feelings of identity are real ("I identify with you, but you don't identify with me, and it hurts"), but they are not any more a hate crime than, say, unrequited love.

I think this is a really interesting way of thinking about it, and is perhaps an alternative way of talking about the idea of "validation" in the trans debate (i.e. that one of the reasons transwomen want access to women's bathrooms - rather than third spaces - is because it validates their identity as women). I think you're right that there's a desire to be part of the "club" of women which results in feelings of hurt when that's rejected - but that you're also right in that no one should be forced to reciprocate a sense of you belonging to that club (or indeed agree that the club exists at all, or that it's terms of membership are what the person wanting admittance wants it to be!).

I think I fundamentally don't get what an 'identity' is.

I get that perhaps there are things I might aspire to, or hope that I'm the kind of person who would do 'X' in a crisis, but otherwise, there are things I am, things I like, and things I try to be, and I don't think that 'identity' is the right word for things I am, and I don't think that things I like should be used to label me with an identity, so I suppose that means things I aspire to are the best fit, but other people seem to use it as I aspire to this, therefore I am this (even if I'm not)

Well I certainly don't respond like you do, And basically you ARE saying I am not a woman. Despite everyone assuming so because of my sex?

Which loos should I use please because it's too confusing.

I doubt there is anything that binds all women together beyond their biological sex. You have something in your head and have assumed other women have it too.

I am female (sex)

I am identiFIED by others as a woman (gender). Meaning they are liable to assess me based on a set of limiting expectations and assumptions.

I am of northern European descent (ancestry).

Due to specific characteristics associated with that ancestry I am identiFIED by others as white (Race).

This means I’m seen as “default” and people don’t tend to make a lot of assumptions about me (though I guess nowadays I might get called Karen - but again that’s more about my sex I think).

No matter how I may wish to identify, I will always Be identified By others based on physical realities,

The goal should be to stop making those limiting And arbitrary assumptions About individuals from certain groups (And check ourselves when we make those assumptions). Not to lie and pretend we are blind to Our knowledge of someone’s sex or ancestry...

they see women and feel "that's another me!"
...
peer group(s)" they identify with
No to this.

If they actually identified with us, there would be a lot more empathy.
I see none.
It's a hostile takeover by a group who knows nothing of what I feel/think and doesn't care at all.

I also struggle with the concept of gender identity OP.
I think your idea is interesting, it gives me another insight into how people feel. It was also illuminating on here a few weeks ago to read some women's views on how their identity & sense of self IS tied up with being feminine, nurturing, and other (positive?) stereotypical womanly behaviours.
It's just not something that I recognise or agree with but it's always interesting to try to see things from another perspective.
It's one of the things that really winds me up actually - the demand that I should validate a stranger's identity as a woman because they are behaving & expressing in a way that reinforces gender stereotypes, that I definitely don't think define women & are often actively harmful.

So in a nutshell I do agree - it's like being left out of a gang of friends at school.
It hurts to be rejected, but no-one has the right to enforce on others who they should be friends with, or include, beyond basic human decency/rights.
You can't make me see you the way you see you, IYSWIM.

I like your idea about unrequited identity.

But i wonder if your example of your own thinking might be more due to internalised sex stereotyping than 'identifying'?

So a man is angry - 'men display anger to assert dominance' - you decide the fault is with him

A woman is angry - 'women get angry when their feelings have been hurt' - you decide the fault is with you

Would it be possible something like that is going on in your subconscious?

... trans women see men and feel they are "other", they see women and feel "that's another me!"... And if a woman says "sorry, but I don't see you as another me", the trans woman's feelings get hurt...

But hurt feelings are part of life and don't change reality.

I am always a bit puzzled by the transwomen who say they always 'knew' they were really women, despite being male (implying a strong internal sense of identity) but if they are misgendered it is hateful and hurtful and denying their existence. If someone else's opinion of me doesn't match my own, that is their issue and not mine. If a TW is so sure of their own sense of self, why is vaildation necessary?

What makes validation necessary?

From what I have read and makes a lot of sense is that certain trans women create a woman personality / fantasy persona of who they are and step into that. When that persona is attacked, they go into male rage because their persona / ideal self is under attack. Rather like a girlfriend under attack and a boyfriend stepping in.

FWR
I don’t agree with your comment on Gender. I don’t have a gender. I am identified by other by my sex. I am a woman. I am easily identifiable by my female characteristics.

I'm afraid I can't relate to your experience of being hurt more by rejection from a female than a male. That seems to be more of a personal thing than a universal "gender" thing.

I do completely agree though that there is a huge amount of pain felt by transwomen when they are "rejected" from the "woman" category. I think this explains a lot of the rage you see online. However, I don't believe that means women should just roll over. There's a huge amount of pain inflicted when women reject male sexual advances as well, that doesn't mean we should be expected to get into bed with them. Us women have sacrificed ourselves to be emotional support humans for thousands of years - we've had enough now.

None of the gender identity ideology makes any sense. And you can’t force a club to accept you as a member - they define the entry requirements, not you.
I could “identify” as a mason, but I can’t demand entry to a lodge! And throwing a tantrum at their failure to “validate” my masonness would generate nothing but contempt for my silliness and self absorption.

I recommend watching the video on the Marcus Evans thread OP.

He covers some of the concepts you mention, briefly explaining the mental illness that drives this and how it is enabled not given the correct care.

Yeah it’s just silly and self absorbed as baby doc says

To much time thinking about themselves

Wish this identity stuff would jus5 do one and fuck off and take the gender woo woo with it

I like your proposal OP and think it sounds very plausible.

I also don't think it matters at all that many other people have no sense of gender identity. I don't. I am happily female but have absolutely no particular internal sense of gender, or concept of shared identity with others based on being a woman (or man for that matter - ie. it's not like because I don't particularly identify with female gender I suddenly identify with male gender).

Just because I feel that way doesn't mean that I can't acknowledge that other people do.

So, assuming that feeling is "gender identity"... trans women see men and feel they are "other", they see women and feel "that's another me!"...

I wonder which particular women Munroe Bergdorf looks at and thinks 'that's another me'? Something tells me it's not women like me!

Which women was Paris Lees thinking 'that's another me' about when Paris wrote articles about enjoying being catcalled and treated like a piece of meat?

I wonder if Fallon Fox was thinking 'that's another me' about the woman she broke the skull of in an MMA fight (and later said 'I enjoyed it)?

Funnily enough, speaking of both Paris Lees and Fallon Fox, I have just come across this article written by Paris in 2014 during her 'writing for Vice' years.

www.vice.com/en_uk/article/3b7j3j/fallon-fox-is-a-woman-get-over-it-925

But surely I can't force people who don't identify with me, to identify with me? I can expect kindness based on our shared humanity, but surely I can't demand control on their own feelings, or request that they lie about such feelings?

Yet this is exactly what twaw advocates are demanding. They want us to deny what we are seeing, deny biology, and are demanding the right to control how we feel about ourselves and them. We are being expected to be silent and be kind while handing over our sex based rights to people who want our erasure.

Great post by Barracker upthread.