Should I have stormed out?

[Pippr]

It's a difficult one. I'm in a friendship group of 3 and we've been friends since high school, so over 15 years. We are a group of 2 girls and 1 man (homosexual).

Man feels that trans rights is the same as the rights gay men had to fight for.

Both myself and other female friend have dealt with abusive men. I've been in a very abusive relationship, one in which I was sexually assaulted in and 2 years after escaping, am still harassed through regularly (and he tells me is my fault because I don't block him, despite the fact that if I DO block him and he makes new accounts to threaten to break down my door if I do it again, and I have children. If I don't reply he doesn't threaten such things, so it seems like putting up with his messages and ignoring them are easier) Friend has grown up with a father who was abusive to her mother. It took her until she was older to realise how abusive he was. She cut him off, and he now uses his powerful position to find out everything about her and sends her emails to tell her he knows.

We have often debated trans and it's always been a very constructive debate. He explains his views. I explain mine. It gets heated but by the end we both understand our reasons. It's never ended badly.

Tonight out of nowhere he called me a bigot. I asked why and he said for my trans views. I said that was an unacceptable thing to call me when he knows my views are based on very real things for both me and our friend. He said he's 'sorry if I felt him calling me a bigot was so awful, but if I wasn't being a bigot it wouldn't be such a trigger'. Friend said that if he respects me and my views like he's always claimed to, then the word bigot is unacceptable and he needs to apologise. He refused to and said I claim to be a feminist but apparently I have no right to comment on feminism and unless I include trans, I'm not a feminist. In the end I stormed out in tears. My friend followed me and walked me home; she said she agreed it was an unacceptable thing to say and would talk to him, but to be honest I'm gutted that i was the one who had to leave, I'm not a bigot, I'm really not. I just want women to have safe spaces. I couldn't care less what men/women want to wear and do.

If anyone has any valuable articles to help me, he is very 'oh show me the evidence because it doesnt really happen' whilst also showing 0 evidence himself, so I would be really grateful.

Apologise for the rant, I'm sat in bed stewing and just so upset my first night with pals for a while got spoilt.

As others have said, you're under no obligation to find him articles and persuade him, but I think this is the article @wibdib mentioned, and it is for everybody. www.holyrood.com/inside-politics/view,cofounder-of-stonewall-calls-for-calm_14648.htm One particularly important aspect of Simon Fanshawe's outlook was his/ their approach to persuasion. Accepting setbacks (society's enforcement of boundaries?) and actually winning hearts and minds.

He sounds like a total and utter arse, no friend, knowing your history or what happened this week, would do that - even without that, who calls a friend a bigot?

I would also say don't waste your energy but if it makes you feel better then do send articles. I hope you make peace with this and no you're not a bigot.

I claim to be a feminist but apparently I have no right to comment on feminism and unless I include trans, I'm not a feminist

This, for me, is the most concerning part. I really have zero time for men who think they can lecture women on feminism. Would they speak to a black person like this about racism? Would they do the same to a Muslim about Islamophobia? No of course they wouldn't. The fact that certain men think they have the right to tell women whether they can or cannot "comment on feminism" shows such a lack of respect for women and their experiences.

Exactly what twoHopes said. And sadly, it’s been my experience that gay men often do this. All fun and gbf until women point out that this doesn’t give them the right to tell us how to think or feel.
How fucking dare he?!

If he’s not prepared to listen to women’s lived experience, then he’s not a feminist ally, and he’s looking at the issue blinkered by his male privilege. That’s the great joy/problem of postmodernist identity politics, it’s so easy to use it as a stick to beat people with.

I wouldnt try and convince him youre not a bigot. It won't work, he will just feed off your desperate attempts to justify yourself and frankly why shld he get that power over you. If you do want to speak to him about what happened maybe u cld say "i was upset because i really value you as a friend and it hurt that you called me a bigot. I always thought we respected each others views. But if you do think im a bigot then thats your opinion which of course youre entitled to and theres not much i can do about it."

Then just leave it. If he values you as a friend i think hed apologise. If not then youve got your answer.

Honestly i think the TWAW crowd are just panicking and all they have left is emotional blackmail. Rise above it.

I totally get your need to back up your position, although it's exhausting. I felt the same after an argument with my daughter, when she just hid behind those accusations of bigotry and transphobia, without any willingness to actually look beyond them. It's the most infuriating, upsetting thing.

I was going to refer you to a brilliant essay by Jonny Best, which I had bookmarked because it was such a clear and uncontroversial walk through a gay man's journey from being an unquestioning ally to being unable to ignore the marginalisation of women (especially lesbians.) I just went to look it out now, but unfortunately he's deleted it from Medium along with all his other work, I think. I know he's been under enormous pressure because of accusations of transphobia and has stepped away from social media etc.

Ultimately though, you don't have to justify your position to him. You're a woman, and he doesn't get to tell you what that means or how to be a feminist. I presume he wouldn't think it appropriate to tell a black friend how to respond to or what to say about BLM, and yet he's ok telling a woman that she's wrong about feminism and her feelings about having her identity appropriated and redefined without her consent are wrong? That doesn't show that he's woke, it shows he's a misogynist.

He's horrible. 💐

Where does it say your friend is entitled to define feminism and gatekeep his definition, saying who is in and who is out?

He definitely needs educating, but it's not your responsibility. You have more than enough going on
When friends start to be stressors, it's time to have a break from them.

I'd ask him the two questions at the top of my post and tell him to get in touch again when he's had a good hard think about his attitude and behaviour and is ready to "be kind" and not before.

Sometimes you only need to scratch the surface to find male entitlement...

The reverse claim (the one you could have aimed at him) is, of course, that he acted like a sexist prat. I don't mean that you should have called him that, but that is my opinion.

I had a very similar experience with a male friend who eventually had an absolute screaming meltdown at me because I wouldn't accept TWAW. He yelled and screamed, loomed over me, pointed in my face and generally used his maleness to try to intimidate me into agreeing with him. He was absolutely certain he was right and that I was a bigot, despite having known me for years. This is a man who would call himself a feminist hahaha. Needless to say, we're no longer friends.

I'm sorry, OP. You've had such a rough week and this sounds like a friendship going down the tubes. Honestly I would take the moral high ground and be like, unless and until you start caring about women and stop supporting abusers, then we can't be friends. Because ultimately, who needs friends like that, who side with your abusers and call you names when you try to talk about your experiences? On the other hand, if he's really a friend who cares about you, he'll come round in time.

His views have as much ligitimacy as yours. He's not wrong and neither are you they are two different viewpoints. Yes you have dealt with some crap but I bet he has too and lots of yeh yarns people he's friendly with will have had terrible experiences.
You need to meet up for a coffee and a hug but agree to disagree

I had a very similar experience with a male friend who eventually had an absolute screaming meltdown at me because I wouldn't accept TWAW

😂🤣😂🤣 OMG, why do I find it knicker wettingly funny when men have screaming meltdowns ?😂

"that if I don't include trans people that I am not a feminist"

FFS, feminism isn't an "All Lives Matter" movement that must include males.

Black people being centred in the BLM movement = absolutely correct

Female people being centred in feminism = bigoted, exclusionary, transphobic, nazi etc etc

He's not much of a friend. He knows you have concrete reason to fear men being in women's spaces because of your past experience. He dismissed your fears and called you a bigot. That's not a friend.

Does he not think that trans men are included in feminism, or is his eyes are "trans" just mtf? Does he date trans men?

Hang on, is he perhaps just really thick? Because it's called feminism, does he think it's for feminine people?
You can point out that it's for the class of people who are oppressed because of their female bodies - potential pregnancies and all that.
Womens' oppression has always been based on their sexed bodies. There is no escaping that fact. You don't need to personally know any abusive males for that to still be true.

Does he believe that if government was made up of 50% women and 50% trans men he'd consider that equal gender representation?

But ultimately it sounds like he's happy to be a misogynist.

Hugs. It’s shit and unfair. Sorry that things have been so hard at work.

Pippr sorry you've had a hard week, and sorry your friend is a misogynistic male who thinks centring men is what feminism should be about.

bishopgiggles

Does he believe that if government was made up of 50% women and 50% trans men he'd consider that equal gender representation?

That's a better way around to put this question

OneEye1961

I have similar issues with my own son. You have articulated it very well! Thank you.

FFS, feminism isn't an "All Lives Matter" movement that must include males.

This is a very good analogy. He's trying to "All Lives Matter" feminism.