OK, Steve Biddulph, I get that men have a tough time, but...

[Rainallnight]

...Could your book (Raising Boys) perhaps acknowledge that a lot of the world is still run by and for men, so something must be going right for them?

I’m only two chapters in, so maybe he gets to it.

Did anyone else find this?

Can’t help you much, as I got to the section that said the majority of mum's job is done by the age of 11 or so, and after that it was up to dad. I handed the book and children to dh and went to read a book and eat a lot of chocolate. Therefore there’s nothing whatsoever that I can criticise about this book

Ive been reading it, and I really loved it (and I'm a GC feminist and a psychologist) as I grew up in an all female household and I have 2DS (and a DD).

It is a revelation and he really wants boys to have strong male role models, males who are equal partners in parenting. He explains the post 11 boys needing men as boys looking around for strong male role models- he also counters that boys still (and always) need their mums for the unconditional love mums give, but they need to model their behaviour on men (this is true, since there are differences in the biological make up of boys which become even more apparent at puberty and they need a male to talk to - in the same way as a 9 year plus female about to have periods needs a woman to talk to, no matter how right on their dad is.

But I love @TaxTheRatFarms reply

Part of me does get needing role models of the same sex - but part of me doesn't at all.
Isn't this just saying there is a right way to be a man and a right way to be a woman. And these two things are so different that you need to be damn sure you are modelling yourself on the right one.
Which I don't agree with at all.
The biology argument is the weakest - I'm sure single Dads can talk to daughters about periods and DH only talked to DS about anything like that if I made him!

My eldest is 10. If he has any questions/concerns he talks to me, there's no way he'd have those kinds of conversations with his dad!

I can see that past 11, if you don't have a good relationship with your son or they're not very reasonable, they're going to be rapidly approaching the same size as you, so perhaps a man, who would generally be more physically intimidating is to keep them under control?

I think there's lots of ways to raise kids, I suppose male role models might be a good idea in that otherwise, might kids potentially get their ideas from TV, but as a rule, I don't see why I can't model behaviour for my son just as well as DP can.

I don't see why DSes modelling their behaviour after me would be so bad, or why they wouldn't. I don't see the fact they're male and I'm female as some un-crossable chasm of difference.

Single mother of two sons here. Interesting about male role models. I've been pretty strongly influenced by advice that boys without strong male role models (doesn't have to be a dad) tend to have worse outcomes and be less happy as they grow up. Like all nature/nurture stuff you can theorise about why this might be the case, but my understanding (ten years ago when I split up with their dad) was that the correlation was pretty strong, so I always bent over backwards to stay on good terms with their dad so that they could see him freely and often. They're very close to my dad too.

They definitely have a very very different relationship with their dad to the one they have with me - much more banter , more piss-taking, less earnest stuff about A Level choices. They talk to him more freely if they're having girlfriend trouble. Plus lots of rough-housing and football with my dad when they were little, which is stuff I'd never have done (and their dad wasn't particularly inclined towards either).

I think the benefit of having more than one close role model is partly about just seeing different ways to be? And also, realistically, past the age of three or so most kids start to strongly identify as male or female and start looking for examples of how adults of that sex conduct themselves. If that role model isn't someone who loves them and prioritises their best interests, it can be pretty problematic I'd guess.

All that said, 'handing them over' at 11 is hooey, obviously (and I wonder whether Biddulph himself took responsibility for all the GP, dentist and teacher appointments, world book day costumes, presents for birthday parties, shoe-fittings, play dates, eye tests, inset day childcare, sick day childcare, nit combing and school trip packed lunches... or does 'handing over' only apply to the fun stuff?)

I haven't read it but probably will as I have a boy. As regards to male role models, I don't think there is anything wrong with a good role model for a boy being their Mum or a female, but there is something about having someone of your sex model something to you.
I think women understand this, it's like as long as positions of power are male for example women are less likely to see themeselves as someone that could take up a position of power. Or having a fantastic female mentor at work, sometimes it just means more when it's the same sex.
We argue for representation because seeing someone like you doing something makes you much more likely to feel like you can do it too.

We argue for representation because seeing someone like you doing something makes you much more likely to feel like you can do it too

Agree and I like how Biddulph frames it in the book as boys not needing these role models in order to become rich or powerful, but instead, these role models should teach them how to treat women with respect, how to enjoy sex in a healthy way and understand the pitfalls of porn, and how to resolve conflict healthily rather than fighting.

His reasoning is that boys will align themselves more with men, so seeing their father treat their mother with respect, and seeing their father deal with conflict in a healthy way is invaluable. And he does stress that this male role model doesn’t need to be a father, but could be a grandpa/uncle/trusted friend.

Dh has changed the way he deals with our preteen based on some advice from this book and I can tell ds feels so much closer to his dad and their relationship is much stronger.

it's a long time since I read that book but I remember hating it. I'm a single parent too and I'm, of course, trying to do my best by my son. But everything that my son needs (decent men in his life), my daughter does too. It was all a bit "boys are like dogs - give them food and take them out for a run every day" for me.

DS is 11 in three weeks. Maybe we are on a countdown to the end of our relationship

Wasn't there something about age 6 .. do I have to wait until 11 to hand DS over? To be fair DH has been unless at all things, especially any I considered to be Dad jobs- like teaching him to ride a bike. I have tried to encourage DH, but he is lazy and I think he'd let him watch iPad all day for an easy life so maybe I'll need to find another role model. We only have one Grandad left (my Dad.)

• useless

We all understand I think why girls going into puberty, even if raised by a great dad, happy to talk about periods and such might begin to need to make connections with female role models and mentors and confidants. It's in part why many women like to have women-focused events and social spaces sometimes - not just for safety, because it can help us connect with or integrate our experience of being women.

Boys are the same, I think.

It's not that we don't have close relationships or inspiration etc from people of the other sex. But the experience of being a boy and being a girl are not the same, and so the insights the come from someone of the other sex about being a boy or girl will not be the same.

Been a while since I read it, but I found the advice that a strong 'uncle' figure is enormously important really interesting. A male figure that the boy can relate to but not compete with like they often do with a father.

And, sorry, even my lovely, sensitive, thoughtful son always needed - still needs - taking out for a run every day, yes, like a dog.

I was always told that boys need a good run out and lots of food. I laughed at this after having my DD, but then having 2 a
DS’s, have discovered that they don’t stop charging around or eating!
So far my boys are definitely my boys, won’t go to Dad unless I’m at work, speak to me about everything (including erections...) DH is just not a talker, so think they all just ambulate towards me!🤣

I like him and his books based around attachment parent and modelled serve and return . The strength of his arguments are about boys needing to grow up with emotionally intelligent men surrounding them and modelling this behaviour as a way to counter toxic masculinity. It's ok for boys to cry etc

We are built to mimic it's how we learn by mirroring and repeating. This reinforces our blue print

He's a an ally

The strength of his arguments are about boys needing to grow up with emotionally intelligent men surrounding them and modelling this behaviour as a way to counter toxic masculinity

That’s exactly what I was trying to say but you said it much more articulately
It’s not just “any man will do”, and I think (in my DH’s case anyway) it’s helped him work on himself becoming an emotionally intelligent man, as he didn’t really have that growing up in his culture. And, completely unpredictably he’s taken the message much better from this book than he did from me!

I read this book years ago and thought it made a lot of sense.
IME boys with no positive male role models in their lives are very likely to gravitate to male role models that are less suitable and sometimes damaging.
I have a relative who was left widowed with 2 little boys at a very young age. She always said that the wonderful scout leaders and teachers around her sons did so much to provide them with good role models.

Can’t help you much, as I got to the section that said the majority of mum's job is done by the age of 11 or so, and after that it was up to dad. I handed the book and children to dh and went to read a book and eat a lot of chocolate. Therefore there’s nothing whatsoever that I can criticise about this book

I think sometimes that a male role model is needed to prove that they aren't so very different from the female ones.

Otherwise they remain an elusive mystery with attributed qualities that are not realistic.

Boys need good male role models - it does not have to be their dad. It also explains how teens gravitate towards friendship groups so you need to make sure that your teens are surrounded by good people.

This work has been extended in mental health for teens to ‘one trusted adult’ and has been implemented with great success at my son’s school - and also at an adolescent mental health facility I am familiar with.

While it is not PC to say it, boys and girls are, in the main, different due to biological differences (hormones and brain changes at adolescence being two of the most obvious) and we do our sons a disservice if our feminism prevents us from acknowledging this reality.