Daily Telegraph article about transwomen in sport

[HollowTalk]

Anyone seen this? I could only read a bit of it as I don't subscribe to the DT. It sounds like it's a very positive article by a transwoman called Diana Thomas.

In case anybody has forgotten who Diana is.

The immigration analogy for transwomen www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3849641-The-immigration-analogy-for-transwomen

Anything D Thomas days about women's rights is really not worthy of comment.

Who has said this (apart from you)?

The person I quoted.....

A fundamental flaw in the piece is where the author suggests the sport could be done in a recreational capacity.

This indicates that they haven't grasped the issue at all.

Simply because a sport is being played at an amateur rather than a professional level does not automatically make it any safer for the female competitors nor reduce the advantage the TW (and potentially their team) have.

Many amateur sports are still competition driven and whilst the stakes are lower in a financial sense, the idea that it's ok to deny women the opportunity to participate safely and on a level playing field (forgive the pun) and enjoy the potential to "win" still isn't acceptable.

@SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun

Who has said this (apart from you)?

The person I quoted.....

I didn't read it like that. I took it to be a 'having your cake and eating it' comment.

She also seemed to be commenting on the fact that DT is portraying transition as a lifestyle choice, which can be done when it's most convenient or advantageous, which isn't the usual 'most oppressed people on the planet' narrative.

DeRigueurMortis That is a good point. What is anyone’s suggestions for trans women and trans men to engage in grassroots sport?

Thanks old crone... that is what I meant, especially with reference to someone like Caitlin Jenner who DT references in the article

Thanks old crone... that is what I meant, especially with reference to someone like Caitlin Jenner who DT references in the article

Ok so what should Caitlin/Bruce Jenner have done with their life? In order not to have had their cake and eaten it?

@SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun

DeRigueurMortis That is a good point. What is anyone’s suggestions for trans women and trans men to engage in grassroots sport?

I think if you want to play sports then you do so in the category dictated by your chromosomes.

It might arguably give TM an edge when playing sport with females but in terms of mass/power/lung capacity/bone density/pelvic alignment (all of which in combination are arguably more important than testosterone wrt sporting prowess) far less advantage than a TW.

I don’t know Caitlin Jenner, I hope they’re happy with their life choices. My point was, usually trans activists and allies talk about transitioning being life saving and any non-affirmative/delaying action is harmful. I know that all trans people are not of one mind about everything, but I perceived from DTs comments a degree of weighing up the pros and cons of when to transition, that she does see it at least partly as a lifestyle choice, a cake and eat it option which women/transmen don’t have.

This may be a view perceived transphobic by some.

(DT’s I mean)

@DeRigueurMortis

A fundamental flaw in the piece is where the author suggests the sport could be done in a recreational capacity.

This indicates that they haven't grasped the issue at all.

Simply because a sport is being played at an amateur rather than a professional level does not automatically make it any safer for the female competitors nor reduce the advantage the TW (and potentially their team) have.

Many amateur sports are still competition driven and whilst the stakes are lower in a financial sense, the idea that it's ok to deny women the opportunity to participate safely and on a level playing field (forgive the pun) and enjoy the potential to "win" still isn't acceptable.

Yes - DT evidently understands the unfairness of elite women athletes losing medals, but seems to have forgotten the much more vital issue of safety. Unless DT meant that this youngster could transition but then only do sport recreationally because they'd have to play as their sex not their acquired 'gender' - playing as what they would be, a possibly weakened male?

Play sport like the rest of us do. Don’t take hormones and continue to play In a team with your natal sex.

Or take hormones and don’t play sport where it matters. So run for fun. Or do yoga. Those are both things I do and millions of other women do. Or join a trans team. Or don’t transition and learn that your body has great strengths and learn to live with who you are. That’s also what I do and millions of other women do.

Gender Dysphoria does not mean you have to transition. It means you feel unhappy in your sexed body. So dress up as the other gender and admit your sex hasnt changed. Or live with the discomfort.

I really have had enough of the narrative that says this particular type of Dysphoria can only be treated by assuming the form of a woman and by us all colluding. What other sort of Dysphoria is treated like that ?

And that’s before we get onto the issue of why it seems to affect some men so badly.

.

Unless DT meant that this youngster could transition but then only do sport recreationally because they'd have to play as their sex not their acquired 'gender' - playing as what they would be, a possibly weakened male?

That is how I read it.

You can’t argue that people can’t change sex and then say that they shouldn’t compete as a man if they are thinking of transitioning in the future because they would be taking advantage of male privilege.

I've read that sentence four or five times, SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun, and I still can't make any sense of it. Any chance you could rephrase it for me, please?

I am disagreeing with the have your cake and eat it argument.

The example is a trans woman who can win Olympic gold in the men’s category ( like the young Bruce/Caitlin Jenner).

One the one hand they shouldn’t compete in the woman’s category (fair enough they would be at an advantage)

On the other hand if they compete in the men’s category and later transition then they are somehow morally wrong because they are having their cake and eating it. Like being in the old boys club and succeeding in business before transition.

Basically no sport or no transition even in the future?

Or should they come out, say ‘I am a man with gender dysphoria but I would like female pronouns and this new name‘. Accept their body as is and compete in the men’s sport.

Surely anyone who is gender critical would encourage someone who was born male to compete with the men and not be judgemental that they did so no matter what they believed about themselves at the time or at a future time.

I am disagreeing with the have your cake and eat it argument.

Well, take it up with the person who wrote the article then. That's who suggested this as a good plan.

Not RTFT

I suspect if Diana was sporty they would have s v different take.

Diana is all about Diana.

Weellll

Re Bruce (and only skimmed thread)

According to some deadnaming is the worst and so those titles would be painful

Also Women can't do decathlon at Olympics so if they were always a woman then those prizes are void.

That sort of thing.

Currently sport is divided on sex (or was until a few years ago). There are still restrictions in some stuff on sex at Olympics.

The new thing says it's up to the individual what does or doesn't apply and what can or can't be mentioned.

Is Caitlyn committing violence against trans people who think deadnaming is the worst?

It's a mess.

My views on transgender women in women's sports is ultimately based on the total numbers who would suffer if the decision went one way or the other. There are many times more young girls who would lose any chance of ever standing on the podium.

That, plus the fact that third and fourth categories could be created for transgender individuals who wish to participate in elite sports means that I am opposed to having transgender women in most women's sports, though the question should be decided for each individual sport on scientific grounds about that sport.

But ultimately it is important to remember that sports are not segregated because of gender identity but because of the average differences between male and female bodies. We are losing sight of the fact that although much sex-segregation in the past just aimed at keeping women out of positions of power, some forms have always been based on those body differences.

But having once been male...

Have DT´s doctors told DT that DT´s actually changed sex?

(I know it´s slightly off topic, but I had to write it to stop my eyes rolling).

To be fair, I think my own opinion would be - be a gender non-conforming male, participating in male sport, but my comments were trying to unpick DT’s opinions in the article.

Further to this, i suspect this would be an uncomfortable situation for a dysphoric/gender nc man - particularly knowing what we do about some men’s attitude towards openly gay sportsmen and the lack of gay representation in premier league football for eg. We know that despite all the abuse directed at GC women, it’s homophobic/transphobic men who are the real threat to them.

I don’t believe for a second that mediocre male athletes are competing as women purely to win stuff, but perhaps women’s sport does have more of a sense of safety/inclusivity for transwomen, with the added benefit of the validation element and the medals.

It comes back to the simple idea that this is a men’s issue for men to sort out, not something that women should give away to make some males feel happier.

@PumbaasCucumbas "I don’t believe for a second that mediocre male athletes are competing as women purely to win stuff"

I wouldn't be so sure. I saw an interesting Joe Rogan interview talking about transwomen in sports and there was discussion of 'sandbagging' -- a term I wasn't familiar with but which refers to the behaviour in sports of deliberately entering a category below one's ability in order to win, or 'stomp' the competition in Rogan's words. If it's common enough to have a recognised term (it has another name in videogaming, where it is apparently also prevalent), I can believe it could play a role for some would-be transwoman athletes.

If it wasn't purely for winning, and the previously-mediocre male athlete in question truly valued sportsmanship and fair play, how could they not feel totally ashamed to step up and claim first prizes in women's events?