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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

India Willoughby

76 replies

PhoebeSnow · 22/07/2020 12:20

Did anyone hear India Willoughby just now on This Morning ?

India was talking about a list of that makes a modern man, based on a newspaper feature, India asked “ Is there a vagina on that list? “ The hosts were perplexed and Christine Hamilton, another guest laughed, and asked when would that be on the list, India then said “ oh its a trans thing”

OP posts:
PastMyBestBeforeDate · 23/07/2020 00:35

India thinks I'm disgusting because I don't shave my legs. I don't, therefore, care what India says.

MsGimpy · 23/07/2020 01:16

@testing987654321

Attacking Transsexuals who accept biology is only going to make us look unhinged and unreasonable to the average person and we will lose if we lose that backing

JKR didn't attack transsexuals, but she's been threatened with violence and called a bitch and a cunt and reported to be transphobic. Remind me again, what we need to do to not be characterised as "unhinged"?

Urgh. I get what you mean, and unhinged is the wrong word (imo trans women are not women and vice versa).

But I don't see any way forward if we're going to take a blanket attitude to all trans people. As I said above, revolutionary groups have generally only been successful when the general population has come along for the ride. We're in a very dangerous position right now. I would certainly be sacked for expressing my (imo) moderate views on this. I'm sure you've looked at the online discourse, where moderate transsexual people are among the few allies we seem to have.

Transsexual women need some level of acknowledgement from us if we are not to be ridiculed as extremists. People like India are not a threat. If more transsexual women, who acknowledge that they are literally male, like India and many others, are able to say the truth, then surely no one can attack us for the same. Perhaps then we can design some boundaries that everyone can agree with.

ThePurported · 23/07/2020 02:34

Transsexual women need some level of acknowledgement from us if we are not to be ridiculed as extremists.
What kind of acknowledgement?

Those of you who believe that feminism and women's rights should include some (?) male transsexuals, have you read this by @ transwidows?
What are your thoughts?

makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/a-plea-for-help-for-feminists-from-a-trans-widow

"Don’t exclude some women from feminism in the interests of inclusiveness. Imagine seeking support from other women, only to find that your husband or father had got there first?

When you allow our ex partners space in your feminism and give them platforms in your organisations and at your meetings, you exclude their wives, daughters, sisters and mothers from accessing these spaces and making use of resources that were set up to support women like them. Prioritise women over your desire to have a “get out of jail free” card to hold up against hostile accusations of bigotry

Above all, the most important thing that you can do to help trans widows, is to centre women and girls in your feminism."

And another thing - the people who campaigned for the changes that led to the current situation were your 'old school transsexuals'. I'm sure they were/are all perfectly reasonable and unthreatening people, they just don't understand women's needs.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007?pg=1

AngryAttackKittens wrote:

"I'm going to point every "but the nice, harmless old school transsexuals whose movement has been unfairly appropriated by the nasty transgender people" person to this thread from now on.

All the same elements we're seeing now were there in that old BBC roundtable from the 70s with the 4 transwomen, the politician, and the doctor. None of this is new."

Datun · 23/07/2020 04:51

It's not about acknowledging transsexuals or making distinctions between men who are calm when they say they're women and are therefore entitled to women's rights, and men who aren't calm.

It's about upholding the current law. The current law is quite clear.

Women's spaces, all of them, can be maintained.

The exemptions in law aren't designed to be upheld on the basis of niceness or the public acknowledgement of biology being a magic key.

Spaces are segregated by sex.

I don't want to decide a man can do my smear test on the basis that someone else finds him delightful.

And in terms of who has campaigned from the beginning, to erase women's rights, it is 'old style transsexuals'.

Bananabixfloof · 23/07/2020 07:36

Perhaps then we can design some boundaries that everyone can agree with
Here's my boundary should you wish to know it.

No men in womens spaces (spaces include but are not limited to prisons, hospital wards, shelters, sports)
Men are anyone with XY chromosomes.
Hth

EthelMayFergus · 23/07/2020 09:04

@SerenityNowwwww

How old is India? Theyve been around for a long time but I’m not really sure what they are (actor, writer, presenter...?)
I think India was a local newsreader somewhere up north before transition.
Michelleoftheresistance · 23/07/2020 09:38

in terms of who has campaigned from the beginning, to erase women's rights, it is 'old style transsexuals'.

Absolutely true.

If you look at the many existing threads here with TS people who are perfectly able to debate calmly, without death threats or screamed abuse and mantras, at the bottom of it there is a clear belief that all spaces are primarily owned by males, and it is for males to tell females what they may and may not have, and do: some may just choose to do it in a kindlier way than others. The belief in this fundamental superiority is innate; the chosen identity might be woman, but the male entitlement and socialising is front and centre. They are always quite clear that they are not the sort of woman that doesn't get listened to and must accept their limits of what male people choose to gift them with. No TW or TS ever wants to be that sort of woman.

That's the sort of womanhood no one can identify out of either.

Which is what makes this fundamentally bullshit. The whole point of females needing female only spaces is that in mixed sex spaces males treat females like this. The fact they may do it politely doesn't make it any less sexist or oppressive.

Michelleoftheresistance · 23/07/2020 09:40

As Datun pointed out years ago, in a way that was to me a clear flash of light: it's merely a discussion between men as to where exactly the foot should be placed on women's necks.

BaronessBollyKnickers · 23/07/2020 09:51

I always love your posts, Michelle, and today is no exception.

ThousandsAreSailing · 23/07/2020 09:59

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TinselAngel · 23/07/2020 10:00

India gets the same treatment as Miranda and Debbie - who come from the group the GRA was originally designed for, and who have no problem pointing out the many issues and holes in the arguments of a political lobby who claim to speak for them.

Debbie at least is not part of the group the GRC was designed for. It was designed so male born feminine gay people (HSTS) could marry men.

Debbie has a wife. As did India Willoughby in the past, IIRC.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 23/07/2020 10:11

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IloveJKRowling · 23/07/2020 10:15

Yes, both India and Debbie have wives and children too IIRC.

Collidascope · 23/07/2020 10:20

India might identify as a woman, but India identifies with men. Anyone else remember that discussion with Karen Ingla Smith (possibly on Good Morning Britain) about women murdered by their partners, and India's response was something like "I feel really sorry for the men, they're getting a bad time of it at the moment."
The appearance on Celeb Big Brother was interesting too.

R0wantrees · 23/07/2020 11:18

India Willoughby for Pink News

'Britain’s rampant transphobia has me worried for my life'
(extract)
"Justine is adamant there’s nothing transphobic on Mumsnet. Only reasoned debate. She wants transgender visitors to Mumsnet to be “happy and supported.” It feels reminiscent of when Cruella de Vil opens a home for stray dogs in 101 Dalmatians.

As I say, take a look for yourself. Trans groups are more than happy to debate any subject Justine or her murky corner of the web wants – but the material on the site isn’t a discussion. It’s vicious, nasty persecution

Mumsnet’s reputation for transphobia is fully deserved. Hardliners openly strategise ways to make life tougher for trans people: Passengers warned not to travel on sleeper trains because they might end up in the same sleeping berth as a woman who’s trans. Support gathered to stop trans women being allowed on Labour’s all-women shortlists. National meeting organised where they can clap and cheer their hatred.

It’s all very similar to the way the National Front used to operate.

I’m sure most people who use the site are decent folk. They want nothing to do with the rabid mouth-frothing going on by so-called “feminists.” (continues)

<a class="break-all" href="//web.archive.org/web/20200525185458/www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/24/india-willoughby-transphobia-opinion-worried-for-my-life-mumsnet/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200525185458/www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/24/india-willoughby-transphobia-opinion-worried-for-my-life-mumsnet/

This followed an interview by Julia Hartley Brewer with Willoughby & Justine Roberts prompted by Mumsnet's public commitment not to be bullied by "transgender “thought police”"

Times
'Mumsnet founder Justine Roberts: Transgender activists try to curb free speech on site'
(extract)
The threats are the latest move in a campaign by transgender activists to inhibit discussion of potential legal changes that would allow people born male to self-identify as women.

Feminists say the plans threaten women’s rights and protected spaces. Trans activists say that to oppose them is bigotry. They have pressurised dozens of venues into cancelling meetings on the subject." (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/mumsnet-founder-justine-roberts-transgender-activists-try-to-curb-free-speech-on-site-z3sr3nf6q

TalkRadio: Julia Hartley-Brewer: Major row erupts while talking about transgender activists and Mumsnet
www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJJ-DUR64CU

R0wantrees · 23/07/2020 11:21

Interestingly, India Willoughby is still perpetrating the idea that Mumsnet FWR acts as a 'recruiting sergeant' ascribing J K Rowling's "transphobia" to being educated by "a well known parenting site", the 'proof' apparently being her mention of clownfish!

15th June 2020 Good Morning Britain
'Is the JK Rowing Anti-Trans Backlash Fair?'
from 8:35

India Willoughby "well I do actually think [J K Rowling's] transphobic, I'll be absolutely honest about that I like it but I think that's down to where she's been educated. I know for a fact that she's got a lot of information from a well known parenting site which is well known, as you know, for being a recruiting sergeant these days. It's been colonized if you like by the the trans exclusionary radical feminists"(continues)

I mean there's some very oblique terms in that long essay JK Rowling did. I mean there's a reference there to clownfish. Now clownfish are amazing. Clownfish can actually change sex naturally, incredible! But ts used in certain areas as an insult towards trans people so on the face of it, I mean there's an innocent reference clownfish but JK Rowling knows the weights that clownfish carries yet she used that thing"

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXKSVWnyOSM

10 JUNE 2020
'J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues'
www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

R0wantrees · 23/07/2020 11:22

The appearance on Celeb Big Brother was interesting too.

Datun · 23/07/2020 11:25

@Michelleoftheresistance

As Datun pointed out years ago, in a way that was to me a clear flash of light: it's merely a discussion between men as to where exactly the foot should be placed on women's necks.
And, in turn, it was made clear to me, in exactly the same way by Barracker.

It dawned on me that, even those women who feel feminist, were still discussing which men, exactly, were entitled to their rights and spaces.

The profound realisation came that all these men feel entitled to them. And were just divvying up, amongst themselves, exactly how much they would take.

And, of course, you see transwomen who are sent to prison, insisting it's prisons. Despite 'having a 7 inch surprise'.

Or those who play sport saying it's sport. Or maybe it's because they are pretty, and have decided that quite obviously they should not be in men's spaces. Or maybe they have reasons to want to be a smear test nurse or rape counsellor. Or maybe they go out of their way to not be perceived as a threat, whilst simultaneously claiming women's boundaries as theirs.

No male is entitled to female rights and spaces. And certainly not on the basis of arbitrary, self interested conditions, that they themselves are imposing, in order to exclude other males of their own choosing.

You only have to take a look at the tv or radio broadcasts about women's spaces and this issue, to realise that, almost universally, those deciding which of women's rights should be given up, are largely men.

No.

ThePurported · 23/07/2020 11:37

It was designed so male born feminine gay people (HSTS) could marry men.

Yes, that's what politicians imagined at the time. And how quickly we went from that to someone like Karen Jones being invited to the House of Lords.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3180059-To-think-if-youve-killed-raped-women-we-dont-give-a-flying-fuck-what-you-think-on-any-given-matter?pg=1

Politicians' willingness to listen to the needs of male people knows no bounds, it seems. I really don't think we need to worry about transsexuals getting their voices heard.

R0wantrees · 23/07/2020 11:40

Transsexual women need some level of acknowledgement from us if we are not to be ridiculed as extremists. People like India are not a threat.

In 2017 on Woman's Hour India Willoughby said that women with hairy legs were 'dirty'
I was a shocked as Jenni Murray to hear this once I had re-listened to check that I wasn't experiencing auditory hallucinations.

Dame Jenni Murray was so insensed she wrote an article. This led to TRAs protest & then public censure by the BBC.
Since then TRAs have no platformed and protested DameJenni Murray.
She noticeably does not do any of the interviews on R4 Womans Hour concerning sex/gender.

May 2017 The article:
"Jenni Murray: Be trans, be proud — but don’t call yourself a “real woman”
Can someone who has lived as a man, with all the privilege that entails, really lay claim to womanhood? It takes more than a sex change and make-up
(extract)
"The fury that a male-to-female transsexual could be so ignorant of the politics that have preoccupied women for centuries hit me again last year — 16 years after I had met Carol. This time I was speaking to another trans woman, India Willoughby, who had hit the headlines after appearing on the ITV programme Loose Women.

India held firmly to her belief that she was a “real woman”, ignoring the fact that she had spent all of her life before her transition enjoying the privileged position in our society generally accorded to a man. In a discussion about the Dorchester hotel’s demands that its female staff should always wear make-up, have a manicure and wear stockings over shaved legs, she was perfectly happy to go along with such requirements. There wasn’t a hint of understanding that she was simply playing into the stereotype — a man’s idea of what a woman should be.

She described hairy legs on a woman as “dirty”. But hairy legs are not considered dirty in a man. Did she not know that the question of whether a woman should shave her legs or her armpits had been a topic of debate among women for an awfully long time? And that to describe a woman who chose not to shave as dirty was insulting and again suggested an ignorance of sexual politics?

Unsurprisingly, my polite and informed line of questioning exposed me to a barrage of criticism on social media. I was a Terf and didn’t understand what Simone de Beauvoir, the author of one of the great feminist tracts, The Second Sex, meant when she wrote: “One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman.”

As a matter of fact, I have understood perfectly what de Beauvoir meant ever since I read her as a teenage girl. Her subject was that “second sex”. She used the word sex advisedly." (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/be-trans-be-proud-but-dont-call-yourself-a-real-woman-frtld7q5c

relevent thread, Mon 27-May-19 OP aprilviolets wrote

"a bunch of nasty women with short hair"
is how India Willoughby describes the people she thinks have influenced the Scout's very sensible decision.
Is it a compulsory feature of womanhood, appropriated or not, to have long hair??!"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3596573-a-bunch-of-nasty-women-with-short-hair

Collidascope · 23/07/2020 11:46

[quote R0wantrees]The appearance on Celeb Big Brother was interesting too.

[/quote] Yeah, that's the bit that sticks in my mind. Look at the body language of those women. Males in female spaces change the dynamics even when they aren't being overtly aggressive as India is there.
R0wantrees · 23/07/2020 11:50

Debbie is also responsible for contributing to the NASUWT guidelines

This is an important thread for female teaching staff & parents of school-aged children:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3938537-NASUWT-Trans-Equality-in-Schools

ThePurported · 23/07/2020 12:04

A pp suggested that we look 'unhinged' if we don't include some dysphoric males just when people are becoming aware of the erasure of women's rights.
How do you think it all started?

The 'definition of insanity' springs to mind.

CatandtheFiddle · 23/07/2020 12:20

Can someone who has lived as a man, with all the privilege that entails, really lay claim to womanhood? It takes more than a sex change and make-up

This. Dame Jenni is fab, as is Germaine Greer on this. Neither is transphobic - they are just stating the differences between a woman and a transwoman.

SerenityNowwwww · 23/07/2020 12:21

Following this argument, I could write about/be interviewed on what it’s like being trans or being a male child - or Italian or 6”2.

It’s what I imagine it would be like surely?