Please tell me if this domestic abuse campaign is as misogynistic as I feel it is...

[Learningtofeminist]

I’ve learned a lot on here about feminism, gender stereotyping and harmful tropes about gender. A friend posted this on Facebook tonight and it makes me VERY uncomfortable but I’m struggling to articulate why...

I do think men are definitely responsible for the vast majority of serious violence though, and part of this could well be down to testosterone - like how male elephants become extremely dangerous during 'musth' when their testosterone rises significantly. Also, likely due to evolution of the male in having to fight for mates or defend territory.

But I do also think that men likely underreport violence. I've known a few male friends who've experienced pretty bad domestic violence (regular black eyes, hot saucepan thrown off hob at head, etc) and none reported it. It's also likely that a man who slapped a woman hard would be seen as an abuser whilst the opposite is a common comedy trope seen and accepted in romcoms, which are mainly watched by women.

"See what I have to deal with?... It only took me poking him 1000 times..."

So according to that 'campaign', a man having a violent or abusive outburst, is in fact because he was being abused by the woman?

So the thousands of women who seek refuge from abusers, do so because they finally snapped and punched him in the face? He's bleeding on the floor crying and she's the victim who runs to a safe house holding the baby?

It would be hilarious, if it wasn't so sad, that the message in that picture actually undermines the real abuse experienced by men in violent relationships. The men who are verbally or physically abused, who never speak up for fear of being seen as weak or incapable. The ones who do need help, are lumped in with a group of men who feel it's acceptable to hurl abuse at a woman because she 'poked' him one time too many, then call themselves the victims.

Wouldn't there being more women make it harder to demonstrate violent tendencies - i.e. if they only interviewed two women it would only take one of them to being violent to be able to state that 50% of female interviewees were violent?

It depends what you're trying to prove or disprove.

This study was set to disprove, sorry test male control theories.

In summary, the overall aim of the current study was to test several predictions derived from contrasting ap- proaches to IPV. Following initial investigation of sex differences in both IPV (between heterosexual couples) and aggression towards same‐sex non‐intimates in the same sample, we investigated whether men would show lower levels of physical aggression to partners than to same‐sex non‐intimate opponents, and whether women would show higher levels to partners than to same‐sex non‐intimates.

Given the sample sizes, the aim of the study and the fact that Dr Elizabeth Bates has built a career based on male victims of DV by female perpetrators, I'm sorry but I'm a bit dubious in regards to her findings as well as the way it has been presented in the media.

After all, what her study actually proves is that men are more violent to other men rather than female partners and women are less violent towards other women rather than male partners.

Which apparently translated into women are as violent and controlling as men , if not more. Then surprise, the number of women interviewed was 300 more than the men.

The prodding bit does seem a bit tasteless in some ways, but I wonder if it's about people like my mother. I would honestly class her as borderline abusive. Maybe even not borderline.

My father is a really gentle guy, as is his brother. All my mother's family are extremely competitive and honestly quite confrontational. She seems to jump at the slightest chance for an argument and will say things to him which she would never tolerate in return. She literally follows him around the house when angry, saying things "don't you walk away from me" and "I'm going to keep following you until you answer me". This will go on for an hour or two until my father finally loses his temper and shouts something like "why are you being like this!", at which point she turns it all on him - "it's all my fault now is it?" and "how dare you speak to me like that."

My sister is NC with her because of this and she prevents her seeing him to spite her. She will just keep going until she gets the response she wants. She's even hidden his car keys when he needs to go to work or changed wifi password when he's wfh and will refuse to give them back until he 'hears her out' (basically takes a load of abuse). Also locks him out the house frequently when angry.

It's the plural in the meme that causes the bother for me. If you changed it to 'A toxic woman can destroy a good man' then that reads differently to casting it as women as a class. And I believe that can definitely be something that happens and, as mentioned above, it may well be contributing towards some male suicides.

There's a big stigma around being a male victim of DV, and while that can involve very different patterns and outcomes to female victims, I don't think any of it is solved by pitting one class against the other.

And shmurf, sorry but your mother sounds awful.

I think it's s very good, strong image. The fact that women suffer domestic abuse on a much more serious scale is irrelevant, as the image isn't suggesting otherwise.

These MRA groups/pages always demonise women/the opposite sex in a way that proper DV charities do not. It's not necessary, you can raise awareness of DV against men without these memes and posts which are dripping with misogyny.

its important to remember as well the definiton of domestic abuse i.e. it is between family members not just people who are married/in a relationship/were in a relationship

Domestic abuse is categorised by any incident or pattern of incidents of controlling, coercive or threatening behaviour, violence or abuse between those aged 16 or over who are or have been intimate partners or family members regardless of gender or sexuality. This can encompass but is not limited to the following types of abuse:

physical
emotional
psychological
sexual
financial
This definition includes honour-based abuse and forced marriage, and is clear that victims are not confined to one gender or ethnic group.

I remember one where they asked women if they'd ever hit their partner and the result was surprisingly much higher than when they asked men, which they proposed was maybe because men were embarrassed to admit.

Could also be that women over-estimate the impact of them hitting through guilt, and men simply don't remember because it had so little effect on them.

Much like I have a son who's a foot shorter than me - if he hit me, then it might sting a bit, but I'm not scared of the idea, I could restrain him if I had to. In the same way DP, a foot taller than me wouldn't have a problem restraining me, me hitting him would have very little impact - if he hit me though, I would be flung across the room.

Yes, some men are victims of horrific domestic violence at the hands of a women, but lets not pretend that men and women are starting from an equal footing.

There sure should be more support for male victims of dv. But complaining that women victims get more support is a bit absurd, if one has the briefest of looks at, say, dv deaths. It's pretty horribly obvious which sex needs more support.

of course male victims of DV need more support - and if MRA activists put as much time and effort into fundraising and setting this support up you know the way women had too, those services would be there

but they dont want to do that, they just want to moan about unfairness because that's easier

This is a Redpill message I think - something from the more misogynistic end of the MRA movement. Its designed to provoke a response. Its trolling, not a serious message.

These MRA groups/pages always demonise women/the opposite sex in a way that proper DV charities do not.

That's interesting you say that, ThatsHowWeRowl, a colleague has been posting about parental alienation on the work intranet chatboards and that's exactly the vibe I've got from it. Feels full on MRA. A couple of people have challenged him on it but I've not yet, trying to work out how to remain professional at the same time as expressing my opinion. Their site is down at the moment but it's this normally parentalalienationuk.info/

*should say it's not his site that I know of but he does quote it extensively.

Obviously it is incredibly misogynistic

DA posters/help aimed at women are all about the victim accessing help, support, shelter, getting away etc.

Thats just a big advert against women. It doesnt help a man whos being abused at all, its purely an anti-woman poster.

When its saying 'but we dont talk about it' (subtext unlike dv against women) whose fault is that? Fucking mens. But its trying to blame women. We cant talk about your domestic abuse for you, the only reason DV against women gets spoken about is because victims started speaking about it

I think its misogynistic too.
What exactly is a "toxic" woman?
For lots of women in abusive relationships, the abuse is a pattern they don't recognise, even while it's happening to them (been there, done that). There are lots of models and research that show what abusive behaviour is and how it shows up in relationships (e.g. duluth wheel).

This just says "toxic" and has an overaggerated picture. What does that mean and how will it help a man figure out if he's being abused or controlled?

There is a difference between systematic abuse and control and having arguments. Some relationships (argumentative) would benefit from couples therapy. Some (abusive) wouldn't. That page seems to be suggesting anything other than nurturing kind behaviour from a woman is "toxic" and a man is within his rights to slap her if she does it.

crankysaurus wrote:

"There's a big stigma around being a male victim of DV...."

That is just another example of MRA propaganda, as Karen Ingala Smith explaines on her blog, studies show men are more likely to report DV than women are. kareningalasmith.com/2013/04/29/this-thing-about-male-victims/

It’s harder for men to report, there’s much more of a taboo for men’

Exactly the opposite:

men are more – not less – likely to call the police
men are more likely – not less – to support a prosecution
men are less likely – not more – withdraw their support of charges.

@Shmurf my mother was like that. Funny thing was it was my mum who walked out on my dad. (Both dead) She then exhibited this behaviour and worse on us. If you stood up for yourself you were then the abusive one. It led to various siblings going NC or LC with her. As a teen I frequently ended up staying with one of my brothers' and SIL because of her behaviour. My SIL refused to talk to her.

Over the years I seen and heard stories of abusive parents and siblings as well partners in all types of relationships.

I'll have a read of that, thanks DonnaQuixote.

Karen Ingala Smith has done some brilliant work on this issue.

I've got a lot of time for her, hadn't seen this piece but it looks interesting, especially in that is countering everything my workmate is quoting. Will have a proper read through this evening.

swap the genders and roles do you still think it is unreasonable? I don,t think it is helpful but it doesn,t mean it isn,t true.

FFS. Whataboutery is spreading like wildfire.

All lives matter, too.That's true. But, you know what? Some things are best left never said!

@QuentinWinters

I think its misogynistic too. What exactly is a "toxic" woman? For lots of women in abusive relationships, the abuse is a pattern they don't recognise, even while it's happening to them (been there, done that). There are lots of models and research that show what abusive behaviour is and how it shows up in relationships (e.g. duluth wheel).

This just says "toxic" and has an overaggerated picture. What does that mean and how will it help a man figure out if he's being abused or controlled?

There is a difference between systematic abuse and control and having arguments. Some relationships (argumentative) would benefit from couples therapy. Some (abusive) wouldn't. That page seems to be suggesting anything other than nurturing kind behaviour from a woman is "toxic" and a man is within his rights to slap her if she does it.

Even without him slapping her because of it; there are so many examples of abusive relationships where the abusive partner will tell the other partner that they are the abusive one. It creates a foundation of guilt and self doubt and causes that person to question everything they do and say, pushes them to apologise for things that they haven't done wrong, and all of this constructs a pattern of psychological abuse. So images like those posted above, just help that along. I can well imagine some men showing that picture to their female partner saying 'see, you do abuse me' and she will feel gutted that she ever raised her voice. That's not how abuse awareness works. It's not a flyer to shove in an abuser's face and say 'see, look, that's you'. It's to help victims to find the strength to leave. Male victims of domestic abuse are highly unlikely to ever say to their partner that they think she is abusive. That's how the doubt and isolation create the perfect environment for further abuse.

All lives matter, too.That'se.

That's true. Typo, sorry.