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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Really good new paper by Marcus Evans re the Affirmative model

18 replies

NellieEllie · 21/07/2020 13:06

Just had a v quick scan of this but it’s got loads of references, quotes from relevant orgs and people. A great attachment for any letter to an MP or arguing the toss with schools etc.

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/freedom-to-think-the-need-for-thorough-assessment-and-treatment-of-gender-dysphoric-children/F4B7F5CAFC0D0BE9FF3C7886BA6E904B/core-reader

OP posts:
Dinodana1 · 21/07/2020 21:25

Oooh thanks. Bumping

BitOfFun · 21/07/2020 22:17

Excellent.

2Rebecca · 21/07/2020 22:57

Agree it's excellent

Pepper70 · 21/07/2020 23:11

What a great article- thanks for posting OP.

NotBadConsidering · 22/07/2020 00:24

Excellent. Have bookmarked it.

SoftlySoftly123 · 22/07/2020 03:21

Thanks for sharing this article OP! It's very good and lays out so clearly the ways in which the affirmative model is not, in fact, always the "kindest" response in terms of patient wellbeing.

I was looking at posts on Twitter with the hashtag "wrong kind of trans" and came across a thread by a Canadian TiM who termed herself a transsexual and was saying she desperately wanted a doctor who challenged her, not in the sense of denying that trans people exist but in terms of engaging with the psychological issues of her dysphoria and helping her to work through hard questions. She found it extremely hard to persuade doctors even to refer her for psychological support.

Datun · 22/07/2020 06:03

That's an excellent article. And strikingly refreshing in how he deals with specifics rather than concepts or generalisations.

And his analysis is damning and comes across as worryingly accurate.

The government need to get a grip on the negative influence social media is having on children regarding treatment.

And the teaching of the ideology in schools needs urgent attention.

Politicians need to bloody step up.

Thinkingabout1t · 22/07/2020 09:29

Thanks, this is useful.

ThePurported · 22/07/2020 11:52

Great article.

I find it utterly disturbing that GIDS has essentially moved away from helping kids with gender dysphoria to diagnosing transgenderism in kids. It's madness.

And why is the government dithering on this issue?
What happened with the inquiry Penny Mordaunt promised, iirc the Equalities Office was going to put it out to tender?

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 22/07/2020 13:11

That is an excellent article. I hope it's a good sign that the British Journal of Psychology has published it. Am I right in thinking that's a very widely read and influential journal in the psychology profession, and that it's published by the British Psychological Society?

I can't see how anybody in government, or senior in politics or health management or teaching or social work anywhere, could read that and not conclude that there's a lot of re-thinking to do. Gender identity is a completely different thing from sexual orientation. Affirmation is the right way to go for sexual orientation, because that's like accepting that your child is left-handed. It's innate, it's well understood, it doesn't lead to medical treatment.

A child's or teenager's declaration of a trans identity is a far more complex thing to react to, not least because it could lead to medical treatment with permanent consequences to the young person's health and fertility, and irreversible changes to the body.

stella47 · 23/07/2020 00:53

Huge relief to see sense in a mainstream psychiatry journal. Another one in the same journal reviews the evidence around gender identity and the implications for practice. Superb article.

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/sex-gender-and-gender-identity-a-reevaluation-of-the-evidence/76A3DC54F3BD91E8D631B93397698B1A/core-reader

Goosefoot · 23/07/2020 01:13

@Thinkingabout1t

Thanks, this is useful.
Yes, it's te kind of thing you could give to someone without it seeming like its a source with an agenda.
R0wantrees · 23/07/2020 12:42

Also by Marcus Evans

Published on January 17, 2020
'Why I Resigned from Tavistock: Trans-Identified Children Need Therapy, Not Just ‘Affirmation’ and Drugs'

(extract)
My concerns in this field became more acute in Spring, 2018, after I retired from active work as a therapist and joined the Board of Governors of The Tavistock and Portman NHS, which hosts the National Health Service’s Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) at the aforementioned Tavistock Clinic—a public facility available to everyone in the UK. Almost as soon as I’d joined, I was made aware of the growing controversy over GIDS. A letter had come in from a group of parents complaining that their children had been fast-tracked through GIDS without any serious psychological evaluation. The author of the letter, a mother representing a group of parents, wrote to me in my role as governor, and I replied, circulating copies of that reply to other governors.

Around the same time, Dr. David Bell, a senior consultant at the Tavistock & Portman NHS Trust and a Tavistock governor, was approached by 10 GIDS staff members (amounting to about one-fifth of the London-based service) who had grave ethical concerns similar to those expressed in the parents’ letter—including inadequate clinical assessments, patients being pushed through for early medical interventions, and GIDS’ failure to stand up to pressure from trans activists. As I discovered, this was not the first time such concerns had been raised. Thirteen years previously, psychotherapist Susan Evans (who, full disclosure, is my wife) had raised her own concerns about the thoroughness of the assessment process by some staff.

As a governor of the Tavistock Trust, I personally witnessed attempts by the Trust’s management to dismiss or undermine both Dr. Bell’s report, which he submitted in late 2018, and the letter from parents. This included accusing Dr. Bell of fictionalizing the case studies he described, questioning his credentials, withholding his report from certain governors, and preventing him from attending a meeting to discuss the Medical Director’s response to his report.

I have learned, through long experience with managing clinical areas in the National Health Service, that such efforts to dismiss or discredit serious concerns about a service or clinical approach typically are driven by those seeking to evade accountability and shield their methods from criticism. Such a defensive, self-serving approach would be dangerous and objectionable in any NHS context. It was particularly worrying in the context of a service that treats vulnerable young people in the midst of life-changing, often irreversible decisions that have unknown medical consequences. And so in 2019, I resigned from the Tavistock board of governors, in protest over the Trust’s failure to address the serious concerns that Dr. Bell and parents had raised." (continues)
quillette.com/2020/01/17/why-i-resigned-from-tavistock-trans-identified-children-need-therapy-not-just-affirmation-and-drugs/

heathspeedwell · 23/07/2020 13:15

Brilliant letter. It's staggeringly sad to see that so many experts know what is happening is wrong, but they are still being pressured by groups like Mermaids to push young people towards surgery.

Professor Robert Winston (Lord Winston) of Imperial College London has expressed concern about medically transitioning young people without having ‘really defined what is really wrong'...

‘He said 40 per cent of people who undergo vaginal reconstruction surgery experience complications as a result, and many need further surgery, and 23 per cent of people who have their breasts removed “feel uncomfortable with what they've done”.

heathspeedwell · 23/07/2020 13:16

That's much much higher than the widely quoted 2% of people who regret transitioning.

Datun · 23/07/2020 17:46

@heathspeedwell

That's much much higher than the widely quoted 2% of people who regret transitioning.
It is.

Furthermore, there is some evidence to indicate that puberty blockers lowers one's IQ.

By as much as 10 points.

I also haven't seen any kind of study to show what happens if a human being does not go through puberty.

So you could have a person whose IQ has been lowered, who has not matured and who has never experienced a sexual thought or feeling.

And we are expecting them to have the tools, skills, resources and maturity to effectively analyse what's happened to them.

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/07/2020 08:02

Interview with Posie in relation to this:

Marcus Evans - psychiatry sits on a knife edge www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3978928-marcus-evans-psychiatry-sits-on-a-knife-edge

Aesopfable · 27/07/2020 08:21

I also haven't seen any kind of study to show what happens if a human being does not go through puberty.

I saw a suggestion that this has been done... by Germans... in the 1940s... with Jewish subjects...

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