Woman's Hour Gender Neutral Babies

[AdultHumanFemale]

I think I just caught that WH is talking about raising gender neutral babies this morning. I'm off for an appointment, but perhaps someone might be interested in tweeting or emailing the programme to remind listeners of the innate gender neutrality of babies, and of the nature of gender as a social construct? I'm hoping this is what they are hoping someone will be along to point out...

There was a Channel 4 series recently 'Britain's Best Parents' or something like that........and one of the parents, a single mother, was bringing her son up according to 'gender neutral' principles. What this meant in practice however, was pushing 'girly' stereotypes and activities into him, and forbidding him any 'boy toys' or activities.

So he had long hair and was encouraged to wear nail varnish, and play with soft, cuddly toys; & play fighting or physical adeventurousness of any sort was frowned upon.

As I posted elsewhere, the talk is about biology, sex, socialisation, and detaching gender stereotypes from sex. No queer mumbo jumbo anywhere. Surprisingly sensible.

And now late diagnosis of autism in women.

As I posted elsewhere, the talk is about biology, sex, socialisation, and detaching gender stereotypes from sex. No queer mumbo jumbo anywhere. Surprisingly sensible

The problem with the forceful detachment of gender stereotypes from sex, though, is that a child's natural or impulsive tendencies can be forcefully repressed - if they accord in any way with the stereotype. See the example I gave above of 'gender neutral parenting'.

It wasn't really gender neutral...it was pushing opposite sex ( girl) stereotypes and repressing the stereotypes associated with boys. It wasn't 'neutral'.

My step sister (who doesn't have kids) is very pro the gender neutral approach and will wax lyrical about the 'damage' us lowly parents cause to society with our stereotyping. She genuinely believes that if boys act like 'typical' boys they have been pushed to by their parents (but of course, it's fine for girls to be tom boys).

We never stopped our son having any kid of toy he took interest in at an early age, which included a toy hoover and brush set, lots of cuddly teddies and female character toys (Sky, Peppa Pig etc), which she loved, but oh how I wish she'd been in Smyths toys with us when, at 20 months old, he stopped dead at the end of the 'pink' aisle, went 'Eeeeeerrrrghhhh!!' and then ran for the Batman section.

Sometimes boys just act like boys. It's OK if they do, it's OK if they don't, but to put the outcome on parents isn't realistic.

I was a child in the seventies so basically no toys (except for the very expensive ones) were off limits. I had guns, action men, Sindy dolls, Girl’s World and all sorts of dressing up outfits including soldier and cowboy. I was a tomboy. I still am.

When my daughter was about 2 I asked what her favourite colour was and she said “brown” 😂 but once she was in nursery it became pink and purple. I haven’t dictated her toy preference (unless it’s proper crap or too expensive or (more usually) a combo of both.) and at 6 she dresses in princess dresses and glittery shoes whilst playing Minecraft or play fighting with her best friend. Of course she also loved her trampoline, but I don’t know if that’s a boy toy or a girl toy (it’s green so maybe for aliens?)

Most kids have mixed taste unless we as parents veto anything and give it a negative connotation. And what they like to play as kids has no real bearing on what they are like as adults- I loved my magic sets as a kid but I didn’t grow up to be a magician.

oh how I wish she'd been in Smyths toys with us when, at 20 months old, he stopped dead at the end of the 'pink' aisle, went 'Eeeeeerrrrghhhh!!' and then ran for the Batman section.

That's just acting like a kid who has, and quite rightly is allowed to express their preferences. DD didn't have much time for the pink aisle either - nor the macho superhero stuff either.

80s kid with everything from sindy to action man, cap guns and frisbees and craft kits. That's gender neutral, not forcing anything. I also had plenty of dolls, given to me by well-meaning relatives who didn't know me at all.

My boys and their cousins are all such a mix - butterflies and pink and fluffy toys and cars and mud and sparkles and intricate drawings and acrobatics and chess and fortnite - in a complete mix of sexes and interests. That is more gender neutral - but even then, the girls are the ones in the dresses because society always has an effect. Of course it does.

I'm not a parent, but I've felt toy stores are too 'gendered' though. Should there really be a 'pink' and a 'blue' aisle? It makes sense to me to group toys by their features, like dolls and action figures on one shelf, toy guns and swords on another, art and craft stuff, soft toys and cartoon characters and so on. And children can run around and find the ones they like or are interested in without having to absorb the message that pink, sparkly stuff is in the girls side while rockets and slime are on the boys side.
Maybe not all toy shops are like that, but the times I've been in one, it always felt gendered.

I don't understand the concept of gender neutral parenting though. As said by others, it often seems to be the parent trying force the child in one way or another rather then letting them like what they like and play with what they want, while understanding that these interests don't 'define' you as a boy or girl.

I guess in general it must be very hard to raise a child gender neutral, how do you convince yourself you or friends are not actually subconsciously pushing, a stereotype and so you have a chance to over correct for your self perceived biases, and clearly you have a lot if you associated certain toys or colours with one or other sex in the first place

society always has an effect. - indeed. And babies will be treated differently from the very moment they are born, so these ideas about sex stereotypes will be very deeply embedded.

It was quite an interesting piece. Her baby is like one minute old though, so she hasn't really been tested as a parent, only to the extent of refusing overly gendered gifts.

The real challenge comes when your child starts to express a preference (perhaps influenced by friends and their possibly stereotypical influences) - how much do you interfere?

My DD11 has got the measure of me. I don't know to what extent I have influenced her personality, but she certainly knows what I like and don't like! So hopefully if nothing else I have made her aware that you don't have to behave in a certain way, just to fit in. My concern now is whether she is just saying stuff to humour me

To an extent I agree that gender stereotyping can be a negative thing and we used to sometimes buy our son traditionally 'girl' toys etc, I would like to move to a world where there is less 'pink and blue' colour coded stereotyping of babies but the idea that every child is born a blank slate and no one has any idea what sex they are until they learn to talk is laughable.

This issue of pushing opposite gendered things is very real. I used to belong to a FB parenting group - I left because it drove me crazy. I remember one parent, in the name of gender neutral parenting, was given a used pink toy castle, and would not give it to her female child because of the colour. She asked if she should give it away or paint it grey. OTOH they were all into giving their boys nail polish and sparkles and unicorn toys. As it tuned out they were all big into gender ideology.

I'm not convinced though that kids learning that colours have conventional associations hurts them. They aren't that old before they realise it's only a convention, and can be subverted - which can be rather fun. If we put too much emphasis on this idea that kids need to express their authentic selves by wearing certain colours, and convention being in the way is somehow a real imposition, it feeds into gender ideology in another way. I think there are more important stereotypes we should put energy into neutralising.

A relative has a little girl and was quite firm that she wouldn’t be all pink and barbie. Bless ‘im. She loves dollies and pink girls stuff now (9 years old) and her brother is dinosaur and superhero crazy.

Some kids just like what they like - nothing worse than being told you can’t have a certain toy because it’s for girls / boys’.

I’m also a 70s kid and loathed pink and dollies. I liked purple though and only dolls who were like robots (so did anything apart from the baby dolls who ate and pooed). Loved mecano and Lego. Also airfix-type kids where you made buildings.

calllaaalllaaammma on WH they were quite open about the sex of the baby; it was really the gendered behaviour and attitudes they were challenging.

I’m also a 70s kid and loathed pink and dollies.

Me too. And now I love pink. And my doll has been my only friend during lockdown: thanks Isobel

I still shave my head, go down the footie and wear Doc Marts though.

I actually like pink as a colour- much of my home is painted hot pink because I like warm colours, but you can get sick of pink plastic when you have a daughter!

My mother did her best to raise me gender neutral. So no Barbies or Sindy or warlike toys, no ballet lessons. She refused to help me style my hair, and I refused to have it short. She wanted me in trousers, I wanted pretty dresses. I am here to tell you it doesn’t work. I loved dolls, pink, ballet, sewing, even with negative encouragement, I yearned for a ballet Sindy and adored playing with a friend who had the Sindy house.
I did enjoy my brother’s racing cars, and my Playmobile though.

That sounds like your DM wanted you to have a 'neutral gender' - rather than her being neutral about your preferences. Or like other parents somewhat pushing the 'opposite' gender...that's not neutrality .

It should surely be neutral parenting, allowing the kids be what they will.

I was thinking that - a baby hasn’t a bloody clue what a dolly or ‘pink’ is, not do they care. It’s the parents who care.

It does wind me up that painting a 3 year old girl's nails would be very bad parenting but painting a 3 year old boy's would be fantastic and bold.

That said, my girls have never asked for make up or nail polish as they don't see anyone using it. I think modelling is more effective than anything, so being your own fully rounded person with a range of interests selected because they're, well... interesting.

A lot of so-called "gender neutral" parenting seems to be about steering female children away from "girlie" things - why is that? Feminine coded things aren't inherently less good or healthy or cool than masculine coded things. I love the push for STEM for girls, for example, but where's the campaigns encouraging boys into childcare or nursing or cleaning?

I believe strongly in letting toys be toys.
I find it sad that I struggle to find clothes for my 6 month old son that are colourful. There's a big proportion of boys clothes that are just navy, blue, or grey.

I was talking to my partner about it and we both agree that clothes and toys are both more heavily gendered than they were when we were kids.

While I don't believe in the type of "gender neutral" parenting that ignores the child's biological sex and tries to push certain types of toys on them, but I do agree in teaching kids that boys and girls can like anything, and giving them a range of things to choose from.

Feminine coded things aren't inherently less good or healthy or cool than masculine coded things.

Some of them are - pretty shoes (or heels, fgs) which aren't designed for a kid to play in, for instance. Flimsier, less practical clothes in general.

@Mumoblue

I believe strongly in letting toys be toys. I find it sad that I struggle to find clothes for my 6 month old son that are colourful. There's a big proportion of boys clothes that are just navy, blue, or grey.

I was talking to my partner about it and we both agree that clothes and toys are both more heavily gendered than they were when we were kids.

While I don't believe in the type of "gender neutral" parenting that ignores the child's biological sex and tries to push certain types of toys on them, but I do agree in teaching kids that boys and girls can like anything, and giving them a range of things to choose from.

Is this more common?

When DS was little (he’s 15 now) he had lovely little kid clothes that were pretty unisex - when he got to about 6 or 7 I noticed it was all skills and military in a lot of the shops but I always tried to avoid these. Recently he chose pink for his new school shirts (he had a choice of shirts to get for the new term).