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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Teenage boys being forced to take estrogen and seemingly being experimented on in LA

34 replies

ImOnTheWrongPlanet · 20/07/2020 11:57

www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-07-15/teenage-boy-was-given-estrogen-developed-breast-tissue-while-in-l-a-county-juvenile-hall-lawsuit-alleges

Apologies if this is a duplicate thread. I've tried searching for it on here but couldn't see anything.

I only found out about this today and wondered if anyone else knew anything about it.

OP posts:
Chungus · 20/07/2020 12:00

Is this a feminist issue? It sounds more like a deranged doctor.

Original poster
ImOnTheWrongPlanet · 20/07/2020 12:02

Maybe not. I'm not good at this sort of thing. Just thought it might be relevant to the trans debate.

OP posts:
lionheart · 20/07/2020 12:23

I can remember reading about this before. One deranged doctor perhaps but there is also a bigger story here:

'Estrogen is normally stocked at L.A. County juvenile facilities for use as part of hormone therapy for contraception and treatment of gender dysphoria, according to the health services representative.'

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 20/07/2020 12:24

I saw this and was really confused. It sounded almost as if he was given estrogen on an attempt to modify his behaviour - am I wrong on that?

DidoLamenting · 20/07/2020 12:39

@ImOnTheWrongPlanet

Maybe not. I'm not good at this sort of thing. Just thought it might be relevant to the trans debate.
It has nothing to do with trans issues. Does "trans" have to be shoe- horned into everything?

It concerns unauthorised and inappropriate medical treatment.

queenofknives · 20/07/2020 12:45

It concerns medical treatment with cross sex hormones so of course it's connected to the "trans debate". No one is trying to shoehorn anything in - it's quite an obvious connection to make.

EricLove123 · 20/07/2020 12:50

@queenofknives It's nothing to do with the 'trans debate' as it isn't. It's not a young person identifying as trans, it's a young person being given hormones as treatment for a behavioural disorder by an abusive medic.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 20/07/2020 12:53

it's a young person being given hormones as treatment for a behavioural disorder by an abusive medic.

So I did read it right. Presumably the estrogen was supposed to make him more docile, like a woman? Has this got any sort of science behind it?

queenofknives · 20/07/2020 13:03

[quote EricLove123]@queenofknives It's nothing to do with the 'trans debate' as it isn't. It's not a young person identifying as trans, it's a young person being given hormones as treatment for a behavioural disorder by an abusive medic.[/quote]
Of course it's related. Yet more medical experimentation on children with cross sex hormones. The child isn't trans but the hormones are. I totally see why OP felt they are related and don't really understand the piling on/criticising her for bringing it up.

Why is he being given oestrogen to control his behaviour? Is that meant to make him more passive or something?

lionheart · 20/07/2020 13:20

It will be interesting to see if that was why the medication was given.

EricLove123 · 20/07/2020 14:13

@queenofknives It's got nothing to do with the trans debate or feminism.

There's zero evidence anywhere that ADHD or ODD could be treated hormonally. You can hypothesise why the medic prescribed it but we don't know and there is no evidence whatsoever that oestrogen may make someone 'passive' even if that's your assumption to try and make it relevant to the 'trans debate'.

It's why all the Drs asked to opine on this case are basically saying 'fuck knows why, it's bollocks' so the fact some deranged medic illegally prescribed medication is absolutely meaningless in that regard.

Any medic will tell you it's incomprehensible that it would be suggested as a treatment and detracting from the real issue - an abusive medic acting criminally- to make some kind of GC point is distasteful.

Because what's happened here is a young man has been abused and assaulted in a government institution by a representative of a medical profession who was actually breaking the law.

queenofknives · 20/07/2020 14:22

@EricLove123 Oh god, what are you going on about? I'm not hypothesizing or making assumptions, I was asking a question. And I wasn't asking YOU the question. So why don't you just leave me and OP alone. Clearly OP is concerned, clearly it does look similar to other situations that we are aware of, clearly she has a right to raise any concerns she wants to raise. If you don't want to talk about it, then... don't? Go away? I don't know what else to tell you.

DidoLamenting · 20/07/2020 16:20

@queenofknives

It concerns medical treatment with cross sex hormones so of course it's connected to the "trans debate". No one is trying to shoehorn anything in - it's quite an obvious connection to make.
It has nothing to do with "trans" debate. There is no "obvious connection"

Isn't the administration of oestrogen as a "chemical castration" som which has long been considered.

DidoLamenting · 20/07/2020 16:28

This has nothing to do with trans issues. Chemical castration exists and is very dubious. Diethylstilbestrolal fir example is anonsteroidal estrogenmedication, which is very occasionally used. Some rogue medic has gone way off- piste here but tying this to trans issues makes you look monomanical. It isn't even a feminist issue.

queenofknives · 20/07/2020 17:05

I'm just so confused why anyone thinks that giving cross-sex hormones to children is not related to giving cross-sex hormones to children or why doing unsupported medical experiments on children is not connected to doing unsupported medical experiments on children. Or why an 'abusive medic acting criminally' has no connection to abusive medics acting criminally. It's possible to see this story as part of a bigger picture. That doesn't make me 'monomaniacal' or even wrong, though I agree that there are other angles to look at this from.

It is an absolute travesty what has happened to this boy and I do see it as part of a larger landscape where children are being routinely medically mistreated, which includes trans issues - but also a lot more besides.

Is there a list of what is and isn't a feminist issue? I'll need to get hold of that. There was me going around thinking that people have a right to raise discussion about whatever issues they like.

Original poster
ImOnTheWrongPlanet · 20/07/2020 17:52

Look I'm new here, this is my first post here. I just thought it was an important (and pretty horrendous story). It might be the wrong place to put it, that's fine.

I was thinking of the bigger picture of kids being given opposite sex hormones for no good reason, without parental consent, and how damaging that is. I think that's relevant to things that are going on in the world at the moment. If you don't that's fine, I'm not here to argue with anyone.

I just wondered if anyone had any more information about it, which is why I posted. If no one has any further information about it then that's that, end of thread.

OP posts:
BelleHathor · 20/07/2020 18:12

Tim Pool the YouTuber did 2 videos about this. Tim talks about how the Trans debate confuses this, was a female who transitioned to a Trans Man etc.

queenofknives · 20/07/2020 18:34

Don't worry WrongPlanet. It made complete sense. Thanks for sharing the information. I agree, it's very concerning.

lionheart · 20/07/2020 19:13

I'll second that WrongPlanet.

Manderleyagain · 20/07/2020 20:48

It's a very bizarre thing, and disturbing. As far as I understand it you have every right to post things here which you think the other mumsnetters who use the board might be interested in.

Durgasarrow · 20/07/2020 23:38

Of course it has to do with the trans debate, since it is similar to what is on offer to other children for non-medical reasons. There is no way that estrogen could be a valid treatment for ADHD, as girls get ADHD, too.

stumbledin · 21/07/2020 00:26

I think it is related. One of the things trans activists are doing is effectively saying gender stereotypes are real. Some doctors now seem to be thinking this and are resorting to these sort "cures".

Its going back to the dark ages ie when male doctors could get women incarcerated in asylums because they decided that a woman being sexually active was not "natural". In those days you would end up having a lobotomy. Angry

And then there was this story only a few days ago - www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/jul/20/i-forgot-how-to-cry-as-a-man-hrt-gave-me-a-range-of-emotions-i-never-thought-possible ie instead of looking at how male stereotypes might have been the reason he felt unable to cry he assumes its hormonal.

Its like what a lot of people who knew a bit more than I do(!) pointed out that Freud was a really good observer. The problem was he was so stuck in the insular world of male superiority he was only able to interrupt events to fit his pre-existing reality. So more often than not prepetuated the problem by re-inforcing the false notion of male superiority.

stumbledin · 21/07/2020 00:28

Sorry - of course its a feminist issue. Women are mothers. Who wouldn't be concerned about this happening to their son.

99.9% of feminism is NOT about trans. Its only on mumsnet that feminism is seen as a single issue camaign about trans!

Shmurf · 21/07/2020 02:38

Does oestrogen actually even make men more docile? When men are on TRT it has to be carefully controlled as aromatisation can create high e2 levels which leads to increased emotional instability.

Cwenthryth · 21/07/2020 03:02

Later in the article the point is made that oestrogen tx could actually make behaviour worse.

My take home from this is how frighteningly easy it is to make a permanent physical change to a young body - from this article it seems less than 2 weeks of medication has lead to breast development that will require surgery to correct.