On Gender Critical Feminism & Trans Activism - Discussion on Letter.Wiki

[nickymanchester]

I recently came across this discussion between two women that I've noticed on Twitter - Kathleen Stock @Docstockk and Helen Pluckrose @HPluckrose

Rather than being extremely shouty it was, I felt, a reasoned debate between two women who seem to be very much in the middle ground (although, from my reading, perhaps veering slightly more to the gender critical side of things).

In any event, I've certainly taken some points from here to use in debates in a very non-confrontational way:-

On Gender Critical Feminism & Trans Activism

Bookmarked to read later, thanks.

From a quick scan, there are some very useful arguments in the final letter from Kathleen Stock, refuting many of the woolier arguments from Helen Pluckrose, who (in my opinion) hasn't really followed many of her own thoughts through to their conclusion. In particular her use of photographs of a (heavily photoshopped) transwoman and a bearded transman is completely irrelevant to most of the questions put to her.

It is, indeed, polite, which has obviously led to Helen Pluckrose receiving a fair bit of abuse. Despite much obfuscating, and a fair bit of "be kind" it's obvious she hasn't completely swallowed the Kool-Aid (see prisons and sports) and therefore she is disgustingly transphobic by TRA standards.

Yes I read this and thought it was pretty good. It's a good format that makes a change from single blogs, and twitter conversations.

HP knows her stuff generally but I was a bit surprised that some of her arguments were similar to tra gotchas - eg 'but you won't want trans men in the ladies'. I agreed with KS on loos, but I thought the conversation got a bit bogged (!) down on loos when other services, spaces & issues are more important.

Helen's principal of starting from the Liberal position - allow people to live as they want until it harms/interferes with others - is right. But twaw prevents us applying that method to the problem. I think that's the main purpose of twaw as a non negotiable principle & slogan - it prevents discussion of those conflicts & potential harms to women/girls because to do so you have to recognise 2 separate groups.

Helen obvs takes a middle path where she can see tw as women in some ways, to some extent, but not in others.