BBC news article talks about the "gender" of horses

[BlueBrush]

Another example of confusing sex and gender. Good that this BBC article acknowledges biological sex...albeit in horses. But then refers to the gender of the horse. The BBC just aren't getting it, are they?

A Suffolk Punch foal is the first in the UK to have been born using technology to determine its gender.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-shropshire-53446927

So...is it a unicorn?

Unfortunately, the use of 'gender' as a euphemism for 'sex' is widespread, predating (and this inadvertently enabling) the current obsession with the former and denial of the latter.

Thus not this

I remember when the cats protection league asked me my cat's gender was a survey. I asked him what his innate gender identity was but he stared at me then walked off.

I assume it is Supreme Being Master of All. Alas I'll never know. So I marked him down as male.

I honestly think 'gender' was originally adopted because people felt awkward about using the word 'sex'. I remember Ruth Bader Ginsberg saying her admin had suggested it, because she said every time a judge (all of them men, at the time) read the word sex he'd be distracted, so why not replace it with gender instead. There'd be a greater focus on the actual law, if she did.

At this point, lots of people just feel that gender is more polite. They don't realise, mostly, that the two now have distinct meanings.

I have actually been noticing the word sex used in news articles, DM had something this weekend about a popstar having friends of the same sex - Katie Pery? So I think some journalists get it and are specific words. I thought it was a strange but correct turn of phrase to use.

Having just had to take out pet insurance, it grated hugely each time I was getting a quote when I had to say whether my dog’s gender was male or female. If any of them had asked for the sex, they’d have had my business.

I think 'gender' started to be used on forms to avoid 'comedians' putting 'yes please' to 'sex'.
Now a lot of people with jobs are a bit thick and don't see the difference. If a pp got a blank look from her cat..we would get the same with charity executives.

Gender was invented by Victorian’s to mean sexist stereotypes.
Being British, we didn’t like saying sex, so used gender. Growing up nobody used sex, only gender, to mean sex. Plenty still use gender like this. The meaning of gender is now similar to the Victorian definition, only worse as it’s so rigid it now changes your DNA, where you should get changed and whether you enter women’s or men’s sports, your eligibility for women’s places in political parties and awards.

So how did Auntie Beeb determine what gender feelz the horse experiences and identifies with - get Dr Doolittle in?

I’d love to see an article on the history of gender, if any journalists are watching, I think many would find it useful and interesting.

To be fair, they are quoting the guy that owns the stallion services business. (Although I don't understand why he used the word "gender" at all).

Thats interesting - they've changed it to sex, its just the quote from the owner of the stud that uses 'gender'.

@ErrolTheDragon I used to use the word 'gender' like that too as did many people.

Now fascinated on how we explore the gender identity of horses. Do we wave pink bridles and blue bridles? Fluffy blankets and macho blankets? Gaze preference? Whether they show a girlish flouce or a higher pitched neigh? How does one even start imposing truly stupid and regressive human stereotypes on horses?

Actually I'm fairly sure I remember one of the Canadian court cases establishing that 'prancing' in a Diva way was proof of gender identity.

I've never actually seen a human prance, but horses might do better at this. We don't have a definition on 'Diva' yet though.

@Thelnebriati

Thats interesting - they've changed it to sex, its just the quote from the owner of the stud that uses 'gender'.

Good. As to the stud owner - I'm sure he's not in the least confused about the sex of his horses (it's not exactly hidden!) and therefore simply wouldn't give a second thought to using 'gender' merely as a euphemism. Maybe a bit of "I'm talking to the media, better not say "sex" "?

So given that we're at this point

• that one common use of gender is simply a "polite" way of saying sex
• that another use is a (I would argue) useful concept around the expectations that society places on people relating to their sex (I may not have articulated that very well)
• and that a further use of "gender" is about a "feeling" relating to one's identity (a concept that many are critical of)

...how do we start picking this apart? How do we explain to those who are not aware of the current gender ideology debate in a simple way that this difference is really important in terms of defining men and women in law (and other areas)?

I use veterinary management software at work and the sex section states ‘gender’. I’d never seen it as anything other than interchangeable language in that setting. Does adding ‘identity’ to gender make a difference? It’s all very confusing.

1. Sex - biological reality
2. Gender stereotypes/roles etc - societal expectations, constraints, conditioning, sex-based oppression,

Then arising form that we have
3) gender nonconforming - the common state of not fitting into the constraints of (2)

Hence
4) gender critical - the realisation that (2) is a problem, so seek to eliminate stereotypes and just let people be themselves

Or
5) the opposite, in which stereotypes are celebrated, gender nonconformity is therefore made into a problem for the person. ' Gender identity' is seen as more important than biological reality.

Something like that, anyway.

Gender and sex used interchangeably was fine, until this was exploited to infringe on and attempt to erase sex and sex based rights. It's no longer fine, its important to separate the two: fixed fact and personality based choices likely to be fluid to some extent over a lifetime for everyone.

I'm afraid anyone talking to me about gender in horses is going to get me mentally assigning frost gendered/goliath gendered/bifluid demiboi pansexual gendered randomly to horses, because that's what gender now means as entirely separate to 'this is a male or a female horse'.

To be fair, it’s a bit like the biological inaccuracy of saying your animal has been ‘neutered’

I heard it on BBC Radio4 News at 12:00. The news reader did not quote anyone, just talked about the foal's "gender" then went straight on to mention "sex-sorted sperm technology".

It irritated me so much I was going to put in a complaint but I suppose that if the News Reader was reflecting what the stallion-owner said then there is not much point: it gives the BBC the perfect get-out.

I had no idea that the Suffolk Punch was so rare now BTW. Beautiful animals.

I almost put in a complaint about this earlier, I see it's now been updated! The quote is the quote, but when they used the phrase "determine its gender" immediately before "sex-selection" it stood out as just idiocy...

@ErrolTheDragon

1) Sex - biological reality 2) Gender stereotypes/roles etc - societal expectations, constraints, conditioning, sex-based oppression,

Then arising form that we have
3) gender nonconforming - the common state of not fitting into the constraints of (2)

Hence
4) gender critical - the realisation that (2) is a problem, so seek to eliminate stereotypes and just let people be themselves

Or
5) the opposite, in which stereotypes are celebrated, gender nonconformity is therefore made into a problem for the person. ' Gender identity' is seen as more important than biological reality.

Something like that, anyway.

For your 2) Why not 'Sex stereotypes/ roles etc'?