Times today - column on 'purity spirals'

[ErrolTheDragon]

Probably not much we don't already know but laid out well.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/twitter-purists-are-robespierre-s-children-sbjszmphl?shareToken=595dc8a050b2291859f7357d452f22c9

And then, unrelated except a different type of keyboard warrior - a pondering on how to deal with sexist trolls.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/facing-down-the-sexist-trolling-of-desktop-warriors-x7kh27kr8?shareToken=0cbfc475b76697b422d5a85a3041ace3

The first article is excellent. Looking at the French Revolution now (through older, wiser eyes) it was horrific. And yes I can see the modern day parallels that writer has drawn our attention to. It is frightening.

I'm going to read the second article later

Thanks for this link, OP.

James Marriott has popped up a few times writing sense; he looks young from his profile photo, good for him for being able to write without pandering to the woke while still young. That's impressive.

This programme on BBC Radio 4 was also about this Purity Spiral and it was one of the most fascinating programmes I've listened to.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000d70h

I really, really recommend it.

I think he said in another article that he is 28 Pear

Hilary Mantel's A Place of Greater Safety should be more widely read.

Also today in the Times on cancel culture, Caitlin Moran:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/92c12df0-c5cc-11ea-927d-8ef16d90d3be?shareToken=4ba4bf868b034fe9e5fa44110c9d5df8

The willingness of companies to fire their employees over these sorts of missteps is a sort of corporate narcissism. Companies are rarely interested in doing the right thing but they are very often interested in presenting a PR-friendly image of institutional purity. But purity and goodness are not the same thing.

It is much easier to be pure than it is to be good. Goodness is complicated and unglamorous and dull. It rests on the hard work of empathy, which is difficult and humbling and which requires us to think about other people and not about ourselves. It is the opposite of narcissism.

Really good piece by JM, those lines especially stood out to me.

Thanks for the link Errol

The purity spiral sounds interesting. It's popped up as a sort of theme in groups I'm part of with people not "wanting to align" with people who they disagree with on certain matters but agree on others. I've always felt it's kind of absurd to imagine that everyone could agree on every possible thing at once. I also think it's absurd to imagine that anyone is beyond reproach. I am absolutely certain that in my life I will have been "ist" to one group or another; not necessarily intentionally, but by not standing up for people in the way I should, allowing and probably supporting cultural structures that prevent disadvantaged people from flourishing etc etc. However, I don't think that makes me bad. It makes me probably ignorant at some point in my life but who isn't? I think the ability to see nuance, be able to change your mind, understand why people may think differently and accept that, politely, is completely lost today.

The article on purity spirals is really excellent, thank you for sharing it.

I've noticed that one particular well-known purity warrior online has a habit of eagerly retweeting admiring comments. It's not a habit that speaks of genuine confidence, surely? You'd need to be really narcissistic to do that, if you weren't just chronically insecure. And that does make me wonder if the crusading zeal isn't also partly to do with someone not at ease with themselves, seeking definitive, simple answers to complex questions. Always pure and in the right, and any dissenters Bad People whom he can safely ignore. The world split between what Rowling termed, "good people, and Death Eaters."

Here’s a recap of the Knitty wars if you missed it

quillette.com/2019/02/17/a-witch-hunt-on-instagram/

The purity spiral concept is really useful
However I’d argue Damian Barr wasn’t the victim of one. He participated in one to bring down Baroness Nicholson on the basis of alleged transphobia despite his own transphobia. It’s not the fact that he wasn’t sufficiently pure that meant he got caught out. It’s the fact that he clearly never gave a shit about the issue but wanted to silence a woman. It was his hypocrisy that did for him. Not his lack of purity.

Oh and he lost nothing whatsoever in being found out. He’s kept all his roles and sinecures.

If ever I was to regret cancelling my Guardian subscription (which I don't ) the Times has turned out to be a fantastic source of excellent, thoughtful writing. The articles by Caitlin and James are both excellent.

Yes terry those two paragraphs jumped out at me too. I'm impressed by his understanding of this given that he's only 28 (that sounds patronising, I know, I'm not that much older than him, but it's so rare for young journalists - or 'jornalists' - to be able to do that these days).

This is the (excellent) Helen Lewis article about how corporations tend to go for quick and cheap woke virtue signals, to avoid having to actually do something to change their culture which might -horror of horrors - cost them money, or cost their while middle-aged men-in-charge having to share their power with other groups (I paraphrase).

www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/07/cancel-culture-and-problem-woke-capitalism/614086/

Hope link works.

Oh and he lost nothing whatsoever in being found out. He’s kept all his roles and sinecures.
Yes this is what flags the blatant misogyny

And although I liked the Caitlin Moran piece because I do enjoy her writing, she is so frustrating with her need to be the cool girl all the time. She’s never been cancelled. She probably got into some twitter spats. That’s not being cancelled.

Maya Forstater lost her job for speaking the truth. That’s being cancelled.

God that Caitlin Moran column is a mess. Apparently young ppl are educating the older generation about how thinking has changed around trans rights (and other rights) through the medium of social media pile ons

No one in the UK is denying trans ppl their human rights but biology is immutable & im not going to be lectured by a 17 year old graduate of the school of tumblr on how I’m a hideous transphobe because I won’t accept opening up hard fought for women’s spaces up to any man who says he’s a woman cos gender stereotypes

She’s frustrating because she completely knows what a woman is but she’ll never come out and say it

I'm impressed by his understanding of this given that he's only 28 (that sounds patronising, I know, I'm not that much older than him, but it's so rare for young journalists - or 'jornalists' - to be able to do that these days).

Agree Pear - I'm not far off being twice his age so wary of sounding patronising in my praise!

Caitlin Moran almost makes a few good points, but can't see the woods for the trees when talking about the power of social media. Twitter seems like the whole world to a few people, but it really isn't.
Contradictory also in saying that young people are schooling us older ones whilst also saying they're too frightened to express opinions that might be unpopular. These statements are not congruent.

Good article. There is a Year Zero fanaticism in the Robespierre faction. Their desire to eliminate, eradicate, denounce and cancel is an authoritarian, intolerant compulsion. Their Manichean certainties are absolutist. The French Revolution provides fertile comparison. I wonder if or when this quote resonates?

Like Saturn, the Revolution eats its children