Easy as PIE – the rebranding of paedophilia

[stumbledin]

There's been quite a lot on facebook about this, and now the Morning Star have published an article. Its really disturbing this renewed attempt to legitimise the sexual explotation of children. And horrible to know that the UK is so prominent in this, and the number of adult men who go to countries in Asia with the specific purpose of abusing children.

Trauma expert Dr JACQUI DILLON reports how she was intimidated and had her Twitter account suspended for raising questions about ‘minor-attracted persons’ amid a worrying trend of dangerous child abusers becoming organised online

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/easy-pie-rebranding-paedophilia

Some might find parts of this article disturbing.

It appears that I may be rattling some cages :)

Today an old story promoting the use of EMDR to treat trauma appeared in the Mail

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8539301/How-triumphed-trauma-terror-attack.html

The article promotes the work of the Trauma Response Network, the UK website of this organisation can be found here - I have linked to the page detailing the trustees

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200720064831/www.traumaresponsenetwork.org/trustees" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200720064831/www.traumaresponsenetwork.org/trustees

The very first trustee is Susan Darker-Smith whose bio reads as follows:

"Susan Darker-Smith is an accredited EMDR Europe Child Trainer & Consultant specialising in complex trauma, dissociative disorders, personality difficulties and eating disorders. Susan has devised a protocol for delivering therapy for victims of sexual assault without evidence contamination and also one for delivering EMDR to complex clients with an existing diagnosis of BPD. She has lectured at various conferences within the UK and abroad. Susan works with complex trauma cases in the NHS and private practice, along with providing supervision in CBT and EMDR."

could she possibly be involved with sinister organisations such as the ISSTD and the ESTD?

her facebook page certainly demonstrates that she is

en-gb.facebook.com/susan.darkersmith

how about another trustee Professor Ian Barron

Professor Ian Barron is the Director for the International Center for International Education (CIE) at the University of Massachusetts and co-director of the International Centre for Child Trauma Prevention and Recovery (ICCTPR). Dr Barron is also Honorary Professor at the Transformative Change: Education and Life Transitions (TCELT) research centre, University of Dundee. Professor Barron, is principle investigator for trauma recovery projects in Palestine, Afghanistan, Brazil and in the UK and Ireland. Dr Barron’s trauma recovery impact case study has been rated as “outstanding and world leading” by the UK Research Excellence Framework (REF).

could Professor Ian Barron possibly be associated with the ISSTD the ESTD and other sinister groups promoting SRA conspiracy theories?

to my complete lack of surprise he is the co author of an "academic" paper on ritual abuse, his co-author being none other than SRA conspirallon Laurie Matthew of Izzy's Promise notoriety. Barron and Matthew are both based in Dundee, currently the source of an explosion of false allegations of non-recent SRA

Organized and Ritual Child Sexual Abuse in Germany Matthew, L & Barron, I.G. (2015). Participatory Action Research on Help-Seeking Behaviors of Self-Defined Ritual AbuseSurvivors: A Brief Report. Journal of Child Sexual Abuse, 24, 429-443

source: scroll down
(sorry to use a cache I cannot get the PDF to load into the archive but it is an ISSTD PDF and I don't ant to download it)

<a class="break-all" href="https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XT3FFd-WhUoJ:www.isst-d.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/RAMCOA.pdf+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XT3FFd-WhUoJ:www.isst-d.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/RAMCOA.pdf+&cd=10&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk&client=safari

This link demonstrates Barron and Matthew working together
www.researchgate.net/publication/320859033_A_preliminary_evaluation_of_presenter_effects_in_the_delivery_of_abuse_prevention_interventions_Teacher_and_survivor_perspectives

Laurie Matthew is a long time promoter of conspiracy theories claiming that Scotland is a centre of SRA and that Jimmy Savile was a satanist

I would advise readers to research her themselves, however a selection of her books can be found here

www.amazon.co.uk/Laurie-Matthew/e/B00U980IOG/ref=dp_byline_cont_pop_book_1?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

for those with little time there is a video about Matthew and her beliefs here

no more time for today but I will post again soon, probably on another thread devoted to skeptical scrutiny of different models of psychotherapy

EMDR gets extremely good results with people who have suffered trauma, and is recommended by NICE as a treatment for PTSD.

I've read Bessel van der Kolk's book and found it a very powerful read.

EMDR gets extremely good results with people who have suffered trauma, and is recommended by NICE as a treatment for PTSD.

I know several people claim to who feel much better following EMDR treatment. I also know many more people who have not been helped at all by EMDR

Unfortunately the evidence base is simply not convincing.

skepdic.com/emdr.html

quackwatch.org/related/emdr/

sciencebasedmedicine.org/how-to-think/

You are correct that NICE recommends it as a treatment, however given the current state of infiltration by cults and pseudoscience of UK institutions this is unremarkable, if concerning

My main concerns relate to EMDR being used as a form of covert hypnosis and are related to the use of EMDR by multiple dubious therapists associated with false memories of non-recent sexual abuse generally and satanic ritual abuse specifically.

SRA promoting therapists love EMDR.

The ISSTD has training events centreed around EMDR as do other SRA promoting organisations

I am also concerned about the use of EMDR by therapists associated with the pick up artist (PUA) movement.

FWIW I do appreciate that many well meaning people train in EMDR and believe that they are helping people. Not all EMDR practitioners are dodgy. I have met some very lovely EMDR therapists.

Just like homeopathy, osteopathy and other SCAM treatments there are many good, decent people who have bought into the myth of EMDR being effective.

Apologies for the short post - no more time

I, for one, appreciate hoodathunkit's contributions.

Who knows who has an axe to grind, but it is useful to remember that everyone starts from a different place.Taking information from different sources and weighing the credibility/bias of that source is what we all need to do when coming to a view. In an ideal world there might be a simple black and white, with some people right all the time, and other's wrong. But that's not how it is, especially in the seemingly murky world that hoodathunkit describes.

Good though that the Morning Star is covering it. The Mail ran a good article about Twitter and MAPs a few weeks back. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8466899/Paedophiles-rebrand-minor-attracted-persons-chilling-online-propaganda-drive.html This is the story, and yes the story, including Twitter's behaviour, is pretty black and white.

Thanks Needmoresleep :)

Who knows who has an axe to grind, but it is useful to remember that everyone starts from a different place.Taking information from different sources and weighing the credibility/bias of that source is what we all need to do when coming to a view.

this

we should be extremely cautious about attributing s/hero status to anyone during these insane times of collective gaslighting and astroturfing

Just popping on to counter Hoodathunk it's ongoing crusade to push false memory syndrome and contribute to a culture of rape denial.

I was abused in childhood (not by a satanic cult but a close family member) and forgot almost all of it until I remembered it in my 30s.

It does happen.

(I've also reported the libellous comments)

Beware of anyone who attempts to be a figurehead, leader or person with expertise in relation to the issues

Who knows who has an axe to grind, but it is useful to remember that everyone starts from a different place.Taking information from different sources and weighing the credibility/bias of that source is what we all need to do when coming to a view.

Both of these quotes apply equally to your posts hoodathunkit
Like OP I'd be really grateful if you started your own thread instead of derailing other people's. The topic of this thread is important.

Just popping on to counter Hoodathunk it's ongoing crusade to push false memory syndrome and contribute to a culture of rape denial.

I am in no way denying rape, what a ridiculous comment. I have survived rape myself. I am not trying to push false memory syndrome. There is no need to "push it" it is well documented and a real thing.

I was abused in childhood (not by a satanic cult but a close family member) and forgot almost all of it until I remembered it in my 30s.

I was abused by a man in my teens and completely pushed it to the back of my mind (you could say I forgot it) until I saw him many years later. Memories are like that. I am not denying that people push things to the back of their mind, it happens all the time. What I am highlighting as a very serious risk is the bizarre and dangerous belief that memories can be forgotten by the mind yet trapped in the body and recovered accurately via "body psychotherapy".

This is an increibly dangerous and frighteningly prevalent belief in some psychotherapy circles, as demonstrated by some of the replies in this thread promoting the academic fraud Bessel van der Kolk.

(I've also reported the libellous comments)

what libelous comments would they be? Show them to me and I will support them with evidence, which I have in abundance

Both of these quotes apply equally to your posts hoodathunkit

yes they do.

I have at no point claimed to be anything other than a flawed human being who makes mistakes like anyone else.

I have never claimed to be a shero or some kind of heroic figurehead and I would be extremely uncomfortable if anyone attempted to portray me in that way.

Like OP I'd be really grateful if you started your own thread instead of derailing other people's. The topic of this thread is important.

No problem, I will happily continue on other threads, but firts I would like to post some evidence to back whatever claims Imnobody4 says are libelous

The Body Keeps the Score isn’t about body psychotherapy. The only reason people have mentioned Bessel van der Kolk is because you brought him up.

The same is true of IFS. It isn’t about body psychotherapy, ‘dark energy’ or the things linked to in your posts.

I am not a psychotherapist. I am just someone being treated for ptsd, by therapeutic methods that you are spuriously linking together and misrepresenting.

You’ve just completely derailed this thread. Why can’t you start your own thread?

"Just very briefly, Bessel van der Kolk is an academic fraud, is married to a trainer at the Source School of Tantra (an extremely controversial organisation facing multiple allegations of rape and sexual abuse), had / has? a close working relationship with the disgraced former Rabbi and paedophile Marc Gafni and was sacked from his position at the Trauma Center for his misogynistic bullying of female colleagues. These are not unfounded allegations. The evidence is easily found all over the internet by anyone who can be bothered to look. "

Where's your 'evidence' for all of this? Some crackpot said it on the internet isn't evidence, btw.

Sorry that response is also a thread derail. Apologies op.

Hoodathunkit I'll engage with you elsewhere if you want to defend your wild claims.

I find hooda's posts useful as potential to look into. However the points raised in the article about MAPs and Twitter are undoubtedly alarming and clearly this behaviour is being condoned.

The Body Keeps the Score isn’t about body psychotherapy. The only reason people have mentioned Bessel van der Kolk is because you brought him up.

The Body Keeps the Score posits that traumatic memories that are repressed by the mind are trapped in the body.

The reason I mentioned Bessel van der Kolk is because he is an extremely controversial figure with multiple links to tantric cults via his wife Betta and via his close associate Marc Gafni and because Jacqui Dillon recommends his book and another notorious book that has been implicated in false memories The Courage to Heal on her website. She also recommends an aray of discredited organisations that promote SRA conspiracy theories about SRA on the same website.

Unsurprisingly Dillon has been involved with long time promoters of the satanic panic the Bowlby Centre

according to the Bowlby Centre's 2009 event "Conference in collaboration with the Clinic for Dissociative Studies on the theme of Ritual Abuse" that took place on 25th/26th September 2009, and which featured a dismal array of notorious SRA promoting quacks and Jacqui Dillon

Jacqui Dillon is a survivor of organised ritual abuse, torture and mind control. She is the national Chair of the Hearing Voices Network, a charity which works to promote acceptance and understanding of the experiences of hearing voices, seeing visions, tactile sensations and other sensory experiences. She is a writer, campaigner, international speaker and trainer specialising in hearing voices, psychosis and trauma.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20120425055326/www.thebowlbycentre.org.uk/documents/Ritualpdf_000.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20120425055326/www.thebowlbycentre.org.uk/documents/Ritualpdf_000.pdf

I suppose that if you buy into the conspiracy theories about SRA then this is all fine.

Personally I would never say that SRA could never happen as you cannot prive a negative. However Dillon's recommendations and connections are certainly eyebrow raising and cause for concern for any skeptical, rational person.

It is also clear from her various biographical accounts that she is a vulnerable person who hears voices and experiences hallucinations.

This does not mean that her accounts of her experiences should be dismissed of course. People who endure long term serious mental illness are extremely vulnerable to being abused.

I have significant personal experience of some of Dillon's recommended "trauma specialists" and believe some of them to be deluded and some to be extremely abusive.

Hoodathunkit I'll engage with you elsewhere if you want to defend your wild claims.

Let us do that.

I need a rest and have lost a lot of time on this, but I will post a new thread later tonight or tomorrow, or you can post one if you wish and I will happily engage with you :)

I find hooda's posts useful as potential to look into. However the points raised in the article about MAPs and Twitter are undoubtedly alarming and clearly this behaviour is being condoned.

thanks :)

what you will find however, if you read my posts carefully is that an organisation promoting the concept of MAPS and with strong associations with the Prostasia organisation recommends the same discredited books that Jacqui Dillon does

which I believe is worth noticing :)

‘The Body Keeps the Score posits that traumatic memories that are repressed by the mind are trapped in the body.’

No it doesn’t. It’s a general book about different forms of trauma and ptsd. It sometimes discusses how trauma is linked to physical symptoms, for example heart beating fast, numb hands, churning stomach when someone is experiencing anxiety.

You are derailing this thread.

Just to save yyou trawling through the thread for the link

here it is, some of the exact same books, promoted by a highly dubious pro MAPS organisation (scroll down to the Trauma Recovery bit)

web.archive.org/web/20200718101205/www.namasteadvice.com/new-page

Stripesgalore

Let's take it to another thread

I’m also troubled by hoodathunkit’s assertions, and would hate for anybody to turn down therapy that’s badly needed on the basis of the assertions here.

EMDR and IFS can be very effective therapies. Likewise hypnosis, which you suggest is somehow dodgy, but can be extremely effective. And Bessel van der Kolk has made important contributions too.

Anything therapeutic can be subverted and used for nefarious purposes if someone wishes to do this. But that doesn’t mean that therapists that use those theories or methods are not to be trusted. It’s a bit like saying people abuse with their hands, therefore anything that uses the hands is dodgy. That would be ridiculous!

It all comes down to intentions and HOW somebody uses something. It’s important to ensure therapists are appropriately qualified so that, for eg, they know not to lead a client to think something happened that didn’t. That is a training issue and an issue around the integrity of the therapist. There are checks and balances in the system to endure therapists are well trained and act with integrity as far as that’s possible to ensure.

I think we need to stay away from wild speculation and conspiracy theories and stick with fact.

EMDR has plenty of evidence to back up its benefit to those of us who have been victims. It’s not fool proof and it’s not successful for everyone but it’s credible.

Bvdk book is iirc similar to Alice millers the body never lies. By the time she got to writing that one I think it was a bit far for me personally but the likes of drama was an excellent and again credible read.

I spent a fair bit of time, before, during and after therapy being part of online survivor communities like those that originated from Alice millers site and the wounded healer journal. The internal family system is something that some people with DID (which is in the dsm) find useful as an alternative for integration therapy. I’ve definitely read accounts which sound like this being misused, but plenty that sound like it’s helpful. I only ended up with ptsd from csa, not DID so I can’t comment personally but I know Jacqui Dillion and the hearing voices network is backed by a lot of credible people and research. It’s entirely possible that some people aren’t, but that doesn’t mean these aren’t great options for people to reach out to or seek support from.

Hood- you might want to read Jennifer Freyds book betrayal trauma theory. She’s the woman responsible for DAVRO, that I’m sure you’ll have seen here and elsewhere currently. She’s also the daughter of the people who tried to push false memory syndrome- precisely because they were abusing her. False memory syndrome (as opposed to false memories) has zero supporting research studies, has been refused entry to the dsm & icd repeatedly and all those involved have been thrown out of any psychological associations world wide. Jennifer Freyd on the other hand has a huge amount of credible research studies that explain how memories can be forgotten and remembered. She’s highly credible, her abuse was real, and her parents argument that her therapist forced her to recall fake memories of abuse is clearly shown to be their bs way of silencing their victim. That’s what false memory syndrome is, it’s a way to silence women, to discredit victims.

I know here there seems to be the likening if the Satan ritual abuse wave to that of tra’s, but that over simplifys a complex issue. There may well have been many examples of therapist putting ideas into patients heads about abuse that never happened- but there are plenty of cases where abuse did happen, more likely not satanic or ritualised. Jennifer Freyd explains her own ‘remembering’ of csa was literally just that her father had told her that all fathers do this to their daughters, and that she wasn’t aware that this was abuse as abuse had been termed stranger danger type at that time. She always recalled her father assaulting her, yet she didn’t have the language for it until she saw a therapist. No doubt many of the supposed false memories that have since been blamed are similar. Jennifer Freyd is highly educated in her field and her book goes onto build of decades of credible research to explain how plenty victims do literally forget some traumatic memories, how our brains are actually designed to do that as prioritising our main attachment to a parent is necessary for surviving. That may well not be your experience, and of course there are some abusive therapists out there, but there is very real, very helpful science that shows that it’s not only possible but likely that many of us forget csa, at least in part, yet can recall it later once safe enough to do so. That’s not my exact experience either, I have forgotten some in the middle, but always remembered many parts of it and have only ever remembered one part later as an adult in therapy. It’s really important to see the likes of Jacqui Dillions experiences within the bigger picture of understanding the reality of repressed memories from trauma and how false memory syndrome is as fake as the idea that sex can be changed just because someone ‘feels like a woman’. There may have been lots of ‘satanic panic’ and plenty of fake cases, but that doesn’t mean all were or are. People organise within crime when it comes to drugs or guns or anything else and peadophillia is no exception. Having worked with survivors as well as being one I know from several that posing indecent images as satanic ones is one way of ensuring children are never believed if they speak up, that’s not to say the abuse necessary is sra but it does mean their account of their experience may well be entirely factual. So it’s important not to discredit Jacqui Dillion or what she’s saying based solely on that. Equally I would not be surprised if there are some very disturbing cult like elements to some therapeutic practices, but that doesn’t mean they are that way inherently or in the right hands of a decent therapist. If they feel unsafe for you then step back by all means, all ways listen to your gut, but that doesn’t make them unsafe for others. Like I say I found Alice Miller’s later books not the sanest, but her earlier ones were life saving.

Seriously try Jennifer Freyds betrayal trauma and see if that helps how you view the whole thing. The whole false memory syndrome society has well known links with the likes of PIE and NAMBLA too, so seeing something somewhere to discredit bvdb side of things doesn’t mean the opposing side are the least bit credible either. Instead read the science and view it from that perspective.