Suzanne Moore on Mrs America

[Siablue]

A brilliant column from Suzanne Moore this week. It ends with the line we fight the same battles 50 years on. Just with less groovy fashion.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/14/mrs-america-depicts-one-of-feminisms-toughest-battles-the-fight-against-female-misogynists

Yes very good column, and I’m enjoying Mrs America very much.

I do sometimes get an uncomfortable feeling that it is making subtle attacks on the current gender critical movement though. It’s the way the screenplay keeps bringing up unisex toilets...

Schlafly wasn't wrong about unisex toilets being a bad idea although I don't think she really believed at that point it was something that would ever happen.

Ironically if the ERA had passed into law back then American women might be in a much stronger position now to fight back on the basis of their sex.

At one point in the show one of the feminist women says (i'm paraphrasing because I can't remember the direct quote) "men have found the perfect shield for their chauvinism - women."

This was a warning shot aimed at Schlafly but honestly it could apply today to all the feminists who are supporting the abhorrent behaviour of some transactivists.

Steinham made a comment about the series. She didn't seem very enamoured with it which is a shame because I thought it was very good.

She did make the pertinent point though (paraphrasing again) that in her opinion Schlafly was not that important and it's never helpful to pit women against women even if some women are awful. It was mostly men who had control over the ERA and it was men who stopped it from happening.

• Steinem

Sorry Gloria!

Yes, but given that the show is pitting women against women, do you get the impression that it’s hinting that we GC feminists are just the Schlaflys of the 21st century?

It's possible I suppose given that TV is a fairly woke industry but I didn't really get that impression.

It's very grounded in female reality. They didn't retrofit it to shoehorn TW in there as has been done with a lot of LGB history and I think they could have found a way if they'd wanted to. I wouldn't be surprised to see the TQ community complaining about erasure as they did with The Handmaids Tale.

Radfems are still the same people we were back then - focused on the reality of the female experience. Schlafly was completely in denial that there were universal female experiences or that we are shaped by them. I don't see what we have in common really.

I don’t think we have anything in common, but I suspect the woke do.

They already believe we are all funded by the US evangelical right wing so it doesn't change much if they do

No it’s not something that concerns me or anything, it had just niggled at me a bit, though I think it’s a great series. Maybe I’m imagining it.

I think the directors are very good - they also did Captain Marvel, which I think is remarkable for not having any male gaze. They really get it.

@WinterAndRoughWeather

Yes, but given that the show is pitting women against women, do you get the impression that it’s hinting that we GC feminists are just the Schlaflys of the 21st century?

I really enjoyed watching the series.

As an aside I saw lots of parallels with what is going on today with the gender critical/TRA battles.

And yes I did get this uneasy feeling that today's gender critical feminists were now being portrayed as though they were the Schafflys of the story. Which is strange is that gender critical feminists are actually gender critical feminists. Which made me feel like there were some manipulations going on by director.

I haven't really worked it all out in my head but I do know what you mean - it did seem that there was an effort to subtly direct the commentary into today's issues.

And I don't think they've got it right.

I'm going to rewatch it at a slower pace and think about it further

Thought I was getting myself bang at it, the hint that gender critical women are right wing, an insinuation that women love battling each other. A nod to young women breaking away from the stifling sexist expectations yes but also an understanding that the young know best & now TWAW, this is the current feminist liberation battle to have everyone accept this. Pin the cck on the feminist, suck my girl dck & they cant see its the same?

I'm really enjoying this, though Steinem's article on how they've emphasised the 'catfight' aspect has changed it a bit for me, so I'm listening out more for references to funding and broader market-driven agendas..

I haven’t watched the whole series yet but I was very struck by one of Schlafly’s lines which was something along the lines of “but women will end up doing twice the work, in the home and out of it”. She wasn’t wrong! (Which doesn’t mean I agree with her views).

Women pushed for equality in law, the workplace etc and were supported by some men, but oddly enough most men didn’t leap to take on an equal share of childcare and wife work.... The whole issue of gender is frankly toxic and I wish we could find a way through without TRA adding their nonsense into blocking any advances.

I've only watched the first two episodes but I thought that, whatever you thought of Schaffly's views, she was clearly very smart. The way Steinem and c/o talked about her made me cringe, and it reminded me of how patronising I used to be about my mum's generation.

I've not watched beyond that because - and I realise I'm in a minority - - I didn't rate it. Great music and great clothes but I'd have preferred more about the politics.

I started watching it, and turned off after about 15 minutes. For me, there was a subtle dig at GC women, and I felt very uncomfortable about it.

Actually, wrong. "Uncomfortable" isn't the word. More like "pissed off".

Winter I had the same thought. The frequent mention of toilets was an attempt to put today’s GC feminists in the same camp as Phyllis and her squaddies. I did enjoy some of it but with reservations because of that recurring niggling thought and also the presence of Sarah Paulson playing a sympathetic character gradually awakening to feminism when the actress in real life has retweeted some nasty misogynistic comments about JKR.

Schlafly wasn't wrong about unisex toilets being a bad idea although I don't think she really believed at that point it was something that would ever happen

Talking of which there was a report in my local paper yesterday about a sexual assault on a woman in a unisex toilet in a bar. The images of the man on the CCTV seems to show him outside of a set of toilet stalls.

I've not watched beyond that because - and I realise I'm in a minority - - I didn't rate it. Great music and great clothes but I'd have preferred more about the politics

Yes, have to say, after watching the trailers that previewed it, a few times I decided it was not for me. It looked to be all totally superficial gloss; retro clothes and hairstyles.

From what I saw, it didn't even explain properly what the Equal Rights Amendment was.

I had a different take on the points about toilets/division of labour that they had Schlafly make. The fact that we’re still debating about these things made the story a bit more nuanced, rather than just Feminists Good, Homemakers Bad. They also underscored that by making Schlafly into a multi faceted individual who you could empathise with, as opposed to the some caricature regressive witch figure. You’re not encouraged to just hate her, IMO.

Women do do the double shift, the emotional labour, call it what you will, and we still do fight over WOH/SAH, so while I deplore her politics on almost every level, she’s not wrong in questioning the notion that to get ahead, women have to completely ditch domesticity. Feminism has always grappled with this. And we’re now grappling over single sex spaces again, obviously, so she wasn’t wrong about that either...

I loved it, I thought it was smart, engaging story telling. And I don’t read it as a cat fight, because let’s face it, feminism and the fight for women’s rights has always been plagued by rifts and factionalism, and that’s ok! Every single political or rights based movement ever has been. It’s totally normal. if we buy into the fact that is shouldn’t, because it looks like catfighting, then we’re expecting something from women that it’s not reasonable to expect. Let’s embrace the diversity of viewpoints as being normal.

Sophocles your interpretation is nuanced and intelligent. Do you think that might be more a reflection on you, informed by your experiences rather than the intention of the makers of the programme?

I was left with a central question in terms of character consistency (important disclaimer -haven't had time to watch whole series yet).

The way Schlafly's decision to oppose the ERA was presented was this:
She's an expert in nuclear arms/proliferation/limitation strategy (albeit with a conservative bent, she's presented as being anti limitation because she feels the USA need to stand up to the Commie threat - all part and parcel of Republicanism at the time and very believable). It's clear (TV interview bit) that she really knows her stuff. She goes to a meeting where she's sidelined into taking the minutes - again very believable. At this point (because she's politically ambitious) she allows herself to be diverted into opposing the ERA (which prior to this she's not been interested in) - because it's an acceptably "women's issue" around which she can make a political splash, whereas SALT talks are seen as a "men's issue" from which she's excluded.

I just find it hard to believe that any woman being subjected to that enforced change of direction, from global geopolitics which she has an education in and is an expert on, to side women's issue, wouldn't stop and think "hmm, maybe those pesky feminists are onto something..." I'd have liked to have seen a bit more internal conflict, a bit more recognition of the fact that she must have been pretty pissed off by having to give up on the stuff she knew about and loved, and replace it with stuff she'd previously thought an unimportant side issue, simply because she was a woman (even if she did it for reasons of personal political ambition and a Realpolitik recognition that this was the world she was in, better work with what you've got than fruitlessly try to challenge it).

Interestingly, her son has recently said he didn't like the series because he always thought of his mother as a feminist, just not the sort of feminist Steinem et al were.

I really enjoyed it although I accept Steinem's misgivings about the cat fight element. The acting was terrific, Cate Blanchett in particular - she got across through the look in her eyes without saying anything what I think might have been deep rooted internal conflicts for Schlafly - the fact that she had, by being sidelined on the Nuclear issues she was an expert on, experienced misogyny, and the fact that her campaigning meant she was effectively working outside the home despite her views. I was willing the Schlafly character to acknowledge these contradictions, I don't know if she did in real life. Complete blindspot on the African American women she employed though :-(

I did pick up the toilets point but I don't know whether this was meant as a dig to current issues.

I agree with what you've said, Sophocles.

I probably won't put this right but I thought it was clever because it was messy. In some ways, Schlafly was very empowered. Unemcumbered by domesticity, with her maids, she could pursue her career. She was clever, ambitious, tough and politically astute (although she was made to take notes in meetings and have sex when her husband wanted it). Yet she claimed not to want all these things (well, agency and a safety net) for the women for whom she claimed to be advocating. Sorry I know I'm not being clear.

I liked this piece by Sarah Ditum in unherd. Feminism is messy and factional because it has to work for such a large group of people with slightly different needs or as SD says it "When a group is as large as 50% of the population, there will always be more conflicting interests than one movement can reconcile, and greater individual rewards for breaking rank.":

unherd.com/2020/08/mrs-america-and-where-feminism-failed/

@SolitaryBee

Sophocles your interpretation is nuanced and intelligent. Do you think that might be more a reflection on you, informed by your experiences rather than the intention of the makers of the programme?

Ah, now that’s another question for the ages- what did the artist intend, and what do we see?! I thought that’s what they were doing, but maybe other people don’t see that, and maybe they didn’t intend that. I think it’s a plausible explanation, though.

It’s exactly the messiness that makes it believable and interesting, Latin, I agree.