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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kasabian hot on the heels of Richard Madeley

123 replies

Jeanhatchet · 08/07/2020 10:06

Kasabian issued a woeful tweet statement before Tom Meighan, their singer, was convicted of domestic abuse and (insultingly to his victim) given 200 hours of community service.

Apparently she refused to support a prosecution and so the sentence was lighter. The judge said he "could" have given a jail sentence and of course he SHOULD have.

It takes abused women a long time to look back and dismantle what was happening to them. Whilst they do that they should still receive justice appropriate to the crime against them.

But ... point here is that between men who should know better ... Madeley ... and men who just want to make money and not bother themselves with women's "problems" ...Kasabian .. it's clear that there is still an awful lot of awareness raising to do.

Kasabian initially issued a statement talking about "Personal issues ..affecting his behaviour" without condemning that behaviour or mentioning support for the woman affected by it. They have been slammed extensively and have tried to amend with something even worse. It ignores the victim ... mentions domestic abuse without any level of understanding beyond the words themselves and offers zero apology for the damage they have done to victims with their previously flippant post and without any message of support to Meighan's victim Vicky Agar.

There is still much work to be done.

Kasabian hot on the heels of Richard Madeley
Kasabian hot on the heels of Richard Madeley
Kasabian hot on the heels of Richard Madeley
OP posts:
MorrisZapp · 08/07/2020 23:01

No I'm not having this. Why would you make up those awful insinuations about what they actually meant? Their statement seems genuine and thoughtful to me, is there something more that we don't know?

MorrisZapp · 08/07/2020 23:03

Mentioning the victims name would be utterly crass and intrusive. There's a child involved. This poor woman has lost her anonymity anyway but there's no need to make it worse for her.

LittleCabbage · 08/07/2020 23:04

@purpleboy

I've got to agree with many other posters, I just don't see the issue, they were probably instructed not to say to much before the court case, as is usual in similar circumstances, they thought he would produce his own statement which he didn't, so they then released a second statement condemning his behavior entirely. Why would the victim want her name dragged through the mud again, I certainly wouldn't of it was me. Sorry op I just don't see what you do.
This.
exwhyzed · 08/07/2020 23:10

@littlbrowndog

Police said they have been called before on this abusive man

This is not his first time. He tried to strangle her

He got 200 hours of unpaid work

Fucking disgusting.

Absolutely

Still not his bandmates fault though.

Reading between the lines I get the impression they despised him anyway, and had possibly been subject to his 'behaviour' themselves.

Successful, powerful men tend to be able to ride these storms if other men around them enable them to. Tom Meighan is finished, even his bandmates couldn't continue tolerate him.

Butterer · 08/07/2020 23:46

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Butterer · 08/07/2020 23:51

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Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Jullyria · 09/07/2020 03:18

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Nuffaluff · 09/07/2020 07:09

Feminists wonder why they are seen as man- haters- there's posts on here which justify that.
Oh yes, I’m afraid I agree.
This kind of criticism of the band members comes across as:
Kasabian = men
Men = bastards
Therefore, Kasabian = bastards
If there was a female member of the band and they put out that statement, I doubt this thread would exist.

pictish · 09/07/2020 08:00

Josh Homme of Queens of the Stone Age also sacked Nick Oliveri, his old friend and bandmate, for domestic violence against his partner.

I agree that this thread is tenuous attempt to bend something to an agenda it does not serve.
Nitpicking through Kasabian’s statement to find imagined fault, is daft. The statement is fine.

RedToothBrush · 09/07/2020 08:24

Got to be honest that having read this article about the guidelines on sentences:
legalfeminist.org.uk/2020/07/07/why-is-kasabian-singer-tom-meighan-not-in-prison/

I'm struggling even more with this thread and the focus of Jean.

Why focus on the innocent members of the band who have taken a pretty hard line rather than make a point about how weak and shit the sentencing for the offence is?

I'm very confused as to why Jean chooses to attack innocent men rather than a system that doesn't take the severity of the crime seriously enough.

But hey what do I know?

The funny thing is having read the case, I get the impression - and I'm reading between the lines here - that one of the reasons the band may have taken the action they did was to try and encourage the woman to leave him in a sort of 'if we can do this we can too way' or to encourage her to support the legal case.

I could be wrong but that's what it looks like to me.

Wrongdissection · 09/07/2020 08:35

I saw the revised Kasabian statement yesterday and actually thought ‘Wow, good on them, that’s a really strong message’.

This thread hasn’t changed that opinion.

Jeanhatchet · 09/07/2020 08:40

I can see lots of you don't agree with me. I'm not bothered too much about that. It's what forums are for.

My opinion is that the statement does not apologise for the previous statement which was injurious to victim/survivors and smacked of patriarchal excusing for men who commit domestic violence. If they weren't able to say much then they should have said nothing other than "we kicked him out - more to follow".

Also - to me - it smacks of self preservation. One of the points of what women try to do is to prevent "domestic abuse" and "oh yes I'm totally against that!" Being used to effectively cover up the reality of what is actually happening to women. She was dragged by her ankles in front of her child who had to call the police in terror.

To me this sounded exactly like that kind of blanket statement and "down with that sort of thing!" to make themselves feel noble. What we need to hear is more than lip service. It needs men to commit to challenging other men. They could have donated to a service perhaps. Good that they kicked him out yes.

I'll back out now.

OP posts:
pictish · 09/07/2020 08:50

If you say so. I think they’ve handled it appropriately and as expected.

TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross · 09/07/2020 09:20

It needs men to commit to challenging other men.

And you don't think that sacking him does that?

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 09/07/2020 09:24

They aren't the ones who did this though, so I'm not seeing that it's their responsibility to do anything other than sack him and condemn his actions, which they've clearly done.
It's all on TM himself. And not a popular view but the woman herself hasn't supported the prosecution even though this happened in front of her child. As a parent, she has a responsibility too.

RedToothBrush · 09/07/2020 09:28

@TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross

It needs men to commit to challenging other men.

And you don't think that sacking him does that?

I am of the opinion that no matter what they did it wouldn't be sufficient for Jean.
Jeanhatchet · 09/07/2020 09:31

I am of the opinion that no matter what they did it wouldn't be sufficient for Jean

Interesting where this is going.

OP posts:
Jeanhatchet · 09/07/2020 09:33

And not a popular view but the woman herself hasn't supported the prosecution even though this happened in front of her child. As a parent, she has a responsibility too.

Yeah. This is not a "popular opinion" because blaming victims isn't popular anymore.

OP posts:
MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 09/07/2020 09:39

I'm not blaming her for the attack, but yes I do think she has a responsibility to protect her child by supporting the prosecution.
What happens to the child after this?

ChattyLion · 09/07/2020 10:04

Dido you said

Feminists wonder why they are seen as man- haters- there's posts on here which justify that.

?! Why is women being critical about responses to domestic violence perpetrated by men on women, ‘Man-hating’ in your book?

And so fucking what if some women do come across like that or even do feel hatred about it? Why do we have to be nice about male violence? That socialisation kills women actually. A bloke has attacked a woman here. Statistically he is one of a vast cohort, it would be perfectly logical to hate men on that basis if anyone wanted to and the fact a lot of women (myself included) don’t hate men just speaks to the fact that human beings don’t run on perfect logic.

Also we have no idea who actually wrote their statement, artists statements may have been approved by them but are usually drafted by and run through various PR people and lawyers especially in an instance like this. Which is why I said upthread that the second statement had some good elements about DV being unacceptable but still could have said more, assuming that professional eyes had been on it.

Jeanhatchet · 09/07/2020 10:05

You are blaming a woman for a man's violence. Isn't he also responsible for the child and the result of that violence upon that child? Or just the woman who doesn't yet fully understand what has happened to her. Do you understand abuse? The dynamics of it? How she will still feel bound to him. She's been trained. A mixture of fear and brainwashing. That's what abuse is. She will still probably love him. She will definitely fear him.

I once crawled from a hospital bed to go to spring mine from the cells. Because I was terrified. If he went to jail we would starve, lose our house. I'd be on my own ... and he had convinced me I was too useless to survive on my own. I'd been prevented from working. I was totally dependent on every way. Are you saying I didn't love my kid because I stayed? I was in hospital because he had knocked me unconscious in the street and a woman had seen it and called the police. I managed to convince the police she was wrong. That I wouldn't support prosecution and I'd say she was mistaken. We rely on others to protect us at this point. I'm glad the police prosecuted. It might take her a long time to realise what has happened to her. But the violence was his. The responsibility for it is his.

Views like yours make me really annoyed. Not for me. But for women who are what I once was. Educate yourself before you do harm to another woman who might read this and put herself in more danger.

OP posts:
Jeanhatchet · 09/07/2020 10:08

I'm so rubbish at Mumsnet sorry.

My last post was in response to this from @MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

I'm not blaming her for the attack, but yes I do think she has a responsibility to protect her child by supporting the prosecution.
What happens to the child after this?*

OP posts:
MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 09/07/2020 10:17

He has proven that he is an unfit parent, so regardless of the fact that he is totally responsible for his own actions and responsible for his child's wellbeing, we know that he will not put his child first and that the child will never be safe in an environment where this man is. He should be in prison.

So that leaves the other parent, the mother, to protect him. The woeful sentence isn't going to keep that man away long term. So she has to. I know how difficult this will be but she has to. There's no one else who will!

I'm not blaming her for his violence - I don't know where you get that from, but you seem to be expecting the band to do more than anyone else in this whole mess and none of this is their fault either.

RedToothBrush · 09/07/2020 10:17

Jean, youve obviously got an opinion that's very very hard line. I understand why you have those views.

You can try and smear me all you like and insinuate I'm some sort of 'male sympathiser' but quite frankly I don't care.

That's just more puritanism and I've bloody had enough of ideological purity over pragmatism and an acknowledgement that people can have really good intentions whilst reserving the right to be human and not utterly perfect.

I think taking such a hard and frankly unattainable standard as a minimum is extremely counterproductive in the long term. Given that authoritarianism in general is bad for women and has resulted in this ridiculous 'cancel culture' which removes the thought process behind public condemnation and reduces it to nitpicking words rather than meaningful and appropriate measured action and civil debate I'm loath to support it unconditionally even in this area.

Its extremely toxic and particularly l to the detriment of women I'm not sure how it helps. Women are consistently asked to perform and be held to higher standards than men which are often unachievable. I'm not sure how applying that to men, helps to improve things for women. It strikes me as a race to the bottom in terms of a purity spiral.

There are times to be critical and times to go 'OK maybe they didn't go as far as I'd like or hoped, but actually I can see they really have tried and got the right idea, which might help pave the way for more doing the same and general progress in that area'. Otherwise it just ends up being perceived as just kicking people for the sake of kicking them and doesn't motivate others who think 'well even if I try and do the right thing, I'm going to get shit for it'. Which actually alienates. I really do think the intention and action (rather than purely a lame statement saying the 'right things') is 'good enough' from the band.

The other band members have been strong in their messaging.

'Guilt by association' as an attitude isn't going to improve anything. We often are powerless to the actions of those around us even if we've tried to persuade or influence to the contrary.

Thats not how human psychology works.

The rest of the band should be able to try and resume a career. If they can't it only reinforces the idea that it's financially and socially better just to suck up domestic violence of your friends and associates because if you don't, you are fucked.

I'm sorry if that doesn't 'cut it' enough for your high standards as a view, but I view it as the way to progress in the long term rather than merely participating in this fashion of public demonstrations of meaningless statement making. I think 'reasonableness' is an often overlooked and undervalued value at present. I fear that failure to be reasonable will ultimately come at a cost for many.

Have the rest of the band acted reasonably even if they aren't perfect in the eyes of everyone? Have their actions been genuinely intended to make the point that they really don't condone this type of behaviour? I do not think it's without personal cost either. There is a bigger picture here at stake. I certainly think it's yes to both counts and I'm not going to push it further in demanding they do more or that they have somehow 'failed to do enough'.

That way just lies madness.

Jeanhatchet · 09/07/2020 10:32

*You can try and smear me all you like and insinuate I'm some sort of 'male sympathiser' but quite frankly I don't care.

That's just more puritanism and I've bloody had enough of ideological purity over pragmatism and an acknowledgement that people can have really good intentions whilst reserving the right to be human and not utterly perfect.*

This doesn't make much sense to me in light of what I've written.

I'm leaving this here. This accusation of "ideological purity" shit is a massive red flag for me now.

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