Let's Talk about what Patriarchy Is

[Goosefoot]

So, we had a brief exchange about this on another thread, and it was suggested we move it to its own discussion. I'll copy and past the relevant posts to show what the idea for the discussion is - no expectation that anyone must lay claim to them and of course people can expand or clarify if they want. I'm alternating the font appearance between different quotes.

Can people not see the correlation in the application of identity politics across different groups. This is no different from women claiming theres some kind of oppressive patriarchy. It uses group identity to form a narrative that is both destructive and destabilising to society as a whole.

Patriarchy is still in literal existence in places on this globe.

It's within some women's living memories, being given the vote for the first time. Some women are imprisoned for not confirming to patriarchal religious law. Etc.

Patriarchy in those pure forms is much diminished in the West, it's true. But in some ways the attitudes towards women under patriarchy have just migrated to things like porn.

It very literally still exists in the House of Lords.

However, patriarchy can just be a system where men, for whatever reason, hold most positions of power. You don’t have to believe that all men are involved in a plot against women to observe that a society is patriarchal.

I think patriarchy gets tosses around too liberally.

If you want to apply it to ancient Roman law or more modern versions of the same, yes, it's functioning as a clear and technically useful word that denotes something specific and definable.

But the ways it's used most of the time by western feminists it just means some undefined and often mysterious set of somethings that result is the disadvantaging of women in some way. It reminds me a lot of what Adolph Reed says about the term systemic racism or even just racism - it's just a name you apply to an effect, but it doesn't tell you anything useful about the cause or mechanisms surrounding it. Because it's abstract and unfalsifiable it lends itself to fuzzy thinking. And it doesn't at all lend itself to suggesting solutions or alternatives.

Can you start another thread on this please?

I'm quite interested in teasing out what is patriarchy, what is prejudice against women, what is an inability to socially and economically value caring, what is woman-hatred etc.

The 7 demands of the UK women's liberation movement.
Why do women need to demand these?
How many of them have been achieved?
Are there any basic human rights men need to demand?

1 – Equal pay now
2 – Equal education and job opportunities
3 – Free contraception and abortion on demand
4 – Free 24hr nurseries
5 – Financial and legal independence
6 – An end to all discrimination against lesbians and a woman’s right to define her own sexuality
7 – Freedom from intimidation by threat or use of violence or sexual coercion, regardless of marital status and an end to all laws, assumptions and institutions which perpetuate male dominance and men’s aggression towards women

finnmackay.wordpress.com/articles-i-like/the-7-demands-of-the-uk-womens-liberation-movement/

"I think, myself, we have come pretty much as far as is possible in flattening out the differences."

How revealing to project your belief in your own near perfection and why you feel you have nothing more to learn or new ways to grow as a person. You think you're as good as humans get. LOL!

@DryHeave

Is patriarchy still a useful term? Does it map to “systemic sexism” - which may be w more useful term as it’s clear, still applies to men and women and is analogous to “systemic racism” that is well understood.

It might be clearer. Though I would say that systemic racism is not "well understood" exactly, there are activists both on the right and left who dislike it and think it tends to obscure more than it reveals.

The leftist version of that critique of the idea of systemic racism is essentially what I think the problem with the idea of patriarchy is. And interestingly, just like someone like Adolph Reed gets that that he doesn't care about racism, in this discussion a bunch of posts have pretty much implied that any discussion about the validity of the term patriarchy is tantamount to being ok with sex discrimination and misogyny.

For all that people here want to say that cancel culture and calling those who have a different view that they are bigots/transphobes is wrong, a lot of it goes around.

No, not "any" discussion of patriarchy, specifically your dismissive and ostentatious word salad that obscures the material truths of male supremacy in a snobbish attempt to philosophize them.

Your conclusion drawn in the first post:, "it just means some undefined and often mysterious set of somethings that result is the disadvantaging of women in some way."

Male violence is not undefined or mysterious. The women here don't fall for postmodernist sophistry and gobbledegook like your entire post at 13:33:39, so much useless bloviating to avoid actually discussing the material conditions of women's lives.

would urge people, especially if you have sons to take a step from this dangerous and irrational group of women before they really cause some harm.

For some reason this put me in mind of that Harry Enfield sketch
"Look at these venomous harridans...they went to university. Hard to believe they're all under 25. "

[quote Thelnebriati]The 7 demands of the UK women's liberation movement.
Why do women need to demand these?
How many of them have been achieved?
Are there any basic human rights men need to demand?

1 – Equal pay now
2 – Equal education and job opportunities
3 – Free contraception and abortion on demand
4 – Free 24hr nurseries
5 – Financial and legal independence
6 – An end to all discrimination against lesbians and a woman’s right to define her own sexuality
7 – Freedom from intimidation by threat or use of violence or sexual coercion, regardless of marital status and an end to all laws, assumptions and institutions which perpetuate male dominance and men’s aggression towards women

finnmackay.wordpress.com/articles-i-like/the-7-demands-of-the-uk-womens-liberation-movement/[/quote]
God, whichever movement this is they really don't have a good grasp on reality. They are quite literally saying "we need men to subsidise us so we can go out to work". Does someone want to tell them how backwards that sounds. It wouldn't be workable. These women have just taken to believing that they don't need mens support and have replaced it with support from the state, whos money they think grows on shrubs.

They come out with these 'solutions' that are just words as they havn't considered for a second the ways in which any of these things might work. They just basically stoke women up in this angry collective with hot air as a strategy, relying on women not being versed enough to check out the viabilities themselves.

I also think we could pretty much agree that no institutions in the west perpetuate male dominance and aggression towards women any more than they do aggression by women towards men.

That list was written in the 1970's, we still dont have any of them, do try to keep up.

They are quite literally saying "we need men to subsidise us so we can go out to work". Does someone want to tell them how backwards that sounds. It wouldn't be workable.

Where do you get that from? How about "we need everyone to contribute to the upbringing and well-being of future generations so that the burden of providing free labour doesn't continue to fall disproportionately on women"?

Has there ever been a society since humans evolved which hasn't been patriarchal?

Alisonjabub
hot air as a strategy that perfectly encapsulates all your posts.

Is the idea of social democracy and of society seeing child raising as a societal responsibility just mind blowing?

This is a model in many countries.
When you look at the top ten countries for women, most are nordic countries with a social democratic financial/welfare model.

It isn't 'asking men for help'. It is free or low cost childcare at the point of use. It would be like saying the NHS was 'asking men for help'.
It only makes sense if you believe that women don't work outside the home and are therefore pointless greedy monsters.
Low cost and free childcare means women who are mothers generally do work outside the home. That's the whole point.

According to this 'Adovasio, J. M., Olga Soffer, & Jake Page, The Invisible Sex: Uncovering the True Roles of Women in Prehistory (Smithsonian Books & Collins (HarperCollinsPublishers), 1st Smithsonian Books ed. 2007 ' no true matriarchy has ever existed.

Lots of Indonesian women have said to me that their society is woman-centred and they do seem to have a very different approach to Islam than people from the middle east.

I logged myself out for a few days accidentally, and then somehow signed in to an old account? Anyway, goose sorry for suggesting the thread and then not participating. I did also feel unequal to it.

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/14/we-are-facing-the-decriminalisation-of-warns-victims-commissioner

This has its own thread.

So whatever is going on here it's not evidence of "the patriarchy" at work I assume?

Particularly interested to hear @Alisonjabub 's take on this because I am in grim yet mischievous mood this morning......

If women are to blame for babies and their economic impact then logically I would assume we are blaming women for this but I hope to be wrong.
Maybe a woman-blaming/denial combo?

Is the idea of social democracy and of society seeing child raising as a societal responsibility just mind blowing?

Yes. Absolutely mind blowing, that any women would see fit to pass off their responsibility of raising their own child to other people. I know 'shirking' is a thing nowadays but this just takes the biscuit!

If women are to blame for babies and their economic impact then logically I would assume we are blaming women for this but I hope to be wrong.

I dont understand, are you saying babies are a problem that someone needs blamed for?? Bizarre. confused

Low cost and free childcare means women who are mothers generally do work outside the home. That's the whole point.

Again, I don't think there are these huge numbers of women you claim that are all desperate to get away from their children and to work instead. If thats what you want to do shouldn't we be just encouraging women not to have children to begin with, Problem solved.