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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Navratilova on Times Radio 100% behind JKR

42 replies

highame · 04/07/2020 09:56

Have just been listening to Times Radio. Navratilova discussion on Tennis and Covid but then asked about JKR. She talked about importance of women's safe spaces and sport. I especially liked the 'it's not up to women to prove men can't compete in women's sports, it's up to me to prove they can', right now they can't. She has campained on women's sport for a long time.

OP posts:
highame · 04/07/2020 11:03

Yes it should have been Men. Was busy making pasta sauce.

OP posts:
zanahoria · 04/07/2020 11:05

In my mind, she is the greatest sportswoman of the 20th Century and I have always admired the way she has spoken up about issues effecting her life. Having her and JKR on board fills me with confidence.

CrowdedHouseinQuarantine · 04/07/2020 11:06

oh, well done Martina.
She is a fantastic spokesperson

SerenityNowwwww · 04/07/2020 11:06

As for Billie Jean King 😡

Navratilova on Times Radio 100% behind JKR
ErrolTheDragon · 04/07/2020 11:07

Yes it should have been Men. Was busy making pasta sauce.

Thanks - it did rather change the meaning!

JKRisagryff · 04/07/2020 11:12

Yy well behaved a lot of modern day ‘liberalism’ seems to be about sticking your fingers in your ears and hoping for the best. You can’t wish these problems away. It’s the same with views on the porn and sex industries just because you wish they were full of empowered, confident women who haven’t been coerced/abused/trafficked doesn’t make that magically the case.

Idealism is fine but there needs to be the bit in the middle where through activism and raising awareness things gradually change for the better. That bit is hard work and takes time. It also relies heavily on evidence based research and listening to the people effected. Not on the idealistic dreams in your head.

NotTerfNorCis · 04/07/2020 11:13

Good for Martina. It takes huge courage for anyone to stand up against this madness, but especially for people who're already in the limelight.

SerenityNowwwww · 04/07/2020 11:15

Martina went through absolute crap for being a gay woman on the tennis circuit. She is an a absolute warrior (actually is there a ‘warrioress’?).

ThePurported · 04/07/2020 11:37

The fundamental problem is not the lack of proof. Sports bodies have not been hoodwinked into thinking that it's fair and safe to include men in women's sports - I doubt anyone who knows anything about sports actually believes that.

The problem is that the inclusion of these boys and men is prioritised over everything else, and so those who don't want to compete as men can have the 'non-men' aka women's category instead. Somebody who was involved in drafting the IOC regulations openly admitted that this (inclusion over fairness) is the thinking behind the decisions, and the fact that the maximum testosterone threshold was set at the low end of the normal range for men speaks volumes.

These people don't rate women's sports. They don't understand why it exists, for them it's just the consolation category for low-testosterone/feminine people.

wellbehavedwomen · 04/07/2020 11:42

@WaxOnFeckOff

I guess the fair way to test it is to have players on the same ranking play or race each other. I wonder why all the world records held by men are better than those for women. Sure if my non tennis playing husband played a game against even a low ranked woman she'd probably beat him but that doesn't mean he doesn't have physical advantage, just that her sporting advantage more than cancels it out.
The Williams sisters claimed that they could beat any man outside the top 200 rankings. So a guy ranked 203 took it on. He prepared by playing a round of golf and having a couple of drinks, and proceeded to beat them both, I think by 6-1 and 6-2. The sisters then said they figured it would be 350 ranking they could compete against, though that's never been tested. This is Venus and Serena Williams. Beatable by the top 350 men... at least.

The man they played said they were using shots that wouldn't be returnable in the women's game, but he could reach pretty easily, and that he was putting a lot of spin on his shots that women just aren't strong enough to contend against.

The argument that if there were a huge advantage all sports would be dominated by male trans athletes completely sidesteps the reality that the number of those transitioning is now rocketing, and very few people, overall, play elite sports... and that most males transition when older, too, so at present they are likelier to transition after their physical peak has already passed. As time goes on, it will happen, if it is allowed to, and across all classes, too. The natural advantage of male biology will mean mediocre male athletes will become world-beaters in the women's classes. Pretending it won't happen is facile.

People need to compete in sex-based categories, and leave gender out of it. Mixed gender, great... and single sex. The fact this is even being argued at all is surreal, and also, sadly evidence of the naked contempt in which women are held.

WaxOnFeckOff · 04/07/2020 11:48

Yep @wellbehavedwomen, that's what I was trying to say but much less eloquently.

It's easy to test whether being a man is an advantage as of course it is.

I guess that the level of advantage will vary due to genes, training, age, level at which transition happened - e.g. puberty blocked or not etc etc, but overall the fact that you are a man, transitioned or not is the major advantage.

I'm sure male sports are not in the least bit concerned about transmen in their sport, funny that.

Broomfondle · 04/07/2020 13:13

@NotBadConsidering

But it also needs to be considered that we haven't had sex segregated spaces since the dawn of time. Some have been fought for in the last century/few decades by women for women and the reason they did that has not changed one bit. Sex based differences and violence has not changed.
I think TRAs and allies think women's and men's spaces grew up with the earth like mountains and rocks and it's a fuddy duddy old conservative tradition that women have their own sports categories and loos.
In the UK women's loos were gained in the last 100 years or so, it wasn't law to have a single sex loo at work until the 1990s I think. These spaces were created for a reason and without them women would be shut out of public life, as they were before they created them.
If another group has another reason for needing their own space from men then fucking get on and make your own!!! Don't argue that the reason women did so in the first place is null and void or part of some quaint tradition terrified pearl clutchers are hanging onto whilst whimpering 'think of the children'. Makes me so mad!!!

JKRisagryff · 04/07/2020 13:18

That is shocking re the Venus sisters. They are incredibly strong athletes as well, I’m no tennis expert but I would imagine it would be even harder for athletes who’s strengths are eg. mobility and tactical playing rather than strength and endurance. So all it would take is one man from out of say 350-400 to decide to transition and just like that would be dominating women’s tennis.

andyoldlabour · 04/07/2020 13:41

WaxOnFeckOff

Between fifteen thousand and twenty thousand men have run faster than the women's world marathon record. No woman has run within .3 of a second of the time Jesse Owens ran at the 1936 Olympics.
Maxine Blythin, a 6' 3" tall transwoman, played for Kent ladies cricket team last year, set a batting average higher than the legendary Don Bradman and was made player of the year.

www.kentonline.co.uk/dover/news/dont-speak-for-me-or-my-ovaries-215668/

www.news.com.au/sport/cricket/transgender-cricketer-maxine-blythin-creates-storm-in-england/news-story/023df5466664684c2d03eebddd3b35de

Broomfondle · 04/07/2020 13:42

Have you been on the boys vs women site?
The point is in elite sports extraordinarily talented women play eachother and extraordinarily talented men play eachother. Not mediocre men vs extraordinary women. This sight shows talented high school boys vs female Olympians.

boysvswomen.com/#/

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 04/07/2020 13:48

Somehow, it's for women to prove the risk - which can only be done when there are raped and abused women, due to the policy, in existence. Then again, when such evidence does exist, and is provided, it's impatiently brushed aside as pointless ancdote.

Does one of the Rules of Misogyny cover the circumstance that the Precautionary Principle should only be adopted when it's convenient for men? Otherwise, it's an absurd over-reaction?

AuntyFungal · 04/07/2020 14:05

I think the Navratilova ‘match’ against Richards is a superb example of misogyny of reporting.

  • Nav was at peak match fitness
  • Rich was at end of playing career and turned trainer ie not peak match fitness, £ playing career over & considerably (in sports terms) older.
  • Nav has said how difficult it was to beat Rich.

Funny how these issues get glossed over.

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