Munroe Bergdorf response to Baroness Nicholson in Evening Standard

[BewaretheIckabog]

Sorry I can’t link but worth a read.

@ShagMeRiggins

...comments we make in the past should not be considered a permanent stain on our characters...

Mmm hmm.

Is that a comment bergdorf made in the article? I dont want to give any clicks to them.

So it's ok for bergdorf to be forgiven for what was stated on bergdorf Twitter just last year, but the baroness is to be vilified for ever more? But especially for what she voted against in 2013?

Should rename themselves The Low Standard.

Fwiw, I don't think the Baroness called Munroe a 'creature' in order to dehumanise her. It's a turn of phrase, possibly old-fashioned now.

I agree with PP upthread: intelligent people need to get off twitter. The pile-ons are ridiculous. And they do not constitute news, ES

I think referring to MB as a "creature" was dehumanising. That has been a very costly (not in terms of money) mistake. It's a good reminder that it's best to stick to the moral high ground.

Bananabixfloof , yes it’s from the article. In fairness, here is the context, but I agree—of course Bergdorf would say that.
Nonetheless, I believe that calm, honest, generous conversation is the key to progress. Though many of my followers would understandably disagree with my decision, I accept your invitation of a meeting for tea and cake in a spirit of openness and reconciliation.

Our public profiles offer us a valuable opportunity to calm the conversation around gender issues and prove that opposing views can be expressed constructively. I don’t bear grudges and comments we make in the past should not be considered a permanent stain on our characters, so long as we make an effort to listen and learn.

Bergdorf then goes on to say the Nicholson’s apology is accepted but before a meeting could take place Nicholson would have to Tweet to all trans people and their families who have been caused great pain.

I’m not a great fan of this blanket apologetic approach to life in matters of politics or facts or ideas. No one other than a sadist wishes to cause pain, but feelings are hurt all the time, and people are offended. As Stephen Fry said, “So what?” Opinions differ.

@nauticant

I think referring to MB as a "creature" was dehumanising. That has been a very costly (not in terms of money) mistake. It's a good reminder that it's best to stick to the moral high ground.

If ‘creature’ had been preceded by ‘beautiful’ would you still think it dehumanising?

Interestingly, Bergdorf writes : ^I acknowledge your explanation that you meant to describe me as Shakespeare’s “wild creature,” from which I take the objection was to the word ‘weird.’

Yes. I'd still view that as dehumanising.

I'd be more interested in the whole 'creature' bit if Berdorf hadn't repeatedly called female people in all directions far worse things than that.

No, I don't subscribe to the idea that there's a sacred caste who can do and say what they like, but that others outside the caste owe them VIP treatment at all times. The term for that is narcissism. I'm not enabling it.

Yes exactly Michelle

I always love reading your posts.

Do you think Bergdorf has any clue who Shakespeare's 'wild creature' is?

Actually, 'creature' seems a very appropriate term. It means a living being that has been created. Mary Shelley used the word to describe the living being created by a man, as opposed to by god, in her seminal work of fiction. I'm not comparing MB to that - MB's far more beautiful, for one thing - but the MB we see now was created by surgeons, endocrinologists, speech therapists, and MB themself.

Bergdorf is demanding that the Baroness abase herself before all trans people - I sincerely hope the Baroness does no such thing because she has nothing to apologise for.

@nauticant

Yes. I'd still view that as dehumanising.

Thank you for your answer.

What michelle said.

Putting the apology caveat in means MB can say she offered to talk to BN but BN refused; just another way of cancelling.

If apologies are required maybe MB could also apologise to all the lesbians and women everywhere who were offended by MB's homophobia and sexism - not to mention being lectured about not speaking about our bodies because MB finds them unacceptable? Just a thought.

And saying that all white people are racist? I do wonder what their mum said to them...

You know I would like to believe that they could meet. Away from the cameras and on neutral territory. If they wished to take another person with them perhaps they could. Perhaps the Baroness could take along someone who was an activist/campaigner who shared her beliefs and MB could take along someone who was a politician that believed TWAW so that there was a balance? Perhaps the person MB takes along could be an older woman like The Baroness and the person that the Baroness takes along could be closer in age to MB.

Perhaps a Court reporter/Stenographer so that there is some record but not a recording.

But can conversations like this ever happen? Are we forever doomed to unsatisfactory, headline-grabbing, gladiatorial ‘debate’ or superficial, specious Insta-friendly sloganeering.

Somethings got to change.

What on earth is the point of them meeting. She was being polite by offering. That's all.

Haveastock I agree it would be great if there could be a mutually respectful conversation where there was more listening than talking.

However, it takes a lot of self-knowledge and humility (and genuine strength not the bullying kind) to have a conversation that is a genuine exchange of views without wanting to "win the conversation" or without having an eye on the bystander.

I think many people approach every interaction as a tussle, which they need to win.
It's the opposite of communication.

@EarlofEggMcMuffin

Haveastock I agree it would be great if there could be a mutually respectful conversation where there was more listening than talking.

However, it takes a lot of self-knowledge and humility (and genuine strength not the bullying kind) to have a conversation that is a genuine exchange of views without wanting to "win the conversation" or without having an eye on the bystander.

I think many people approach every interaction as a tussle, which they need to win.
It's the opposite of communication.

And that's especially true in twitter. I think it might be slightly better irl.

Tow points:

1. I don't follow social media - what is Bergdorf's backstory. How come trans?

2. Some working class people do send their children to private/independent schools. Obviously not of the calibre of Eton, which is for the seriously privileged, but to local independents, and much of their income goes on paying for this.

Two points ( I seriously wish there was an edit function on this board)

Some working class people do send their children to private/independent schools.

Yes, that’s absolutely true.

It was corrected on the first page and didn’t get much acknowledgment, but there doesn’t seem to be any evidence of Bergdorf having attended a private school, just an all-male/boy comprehensive that is CO-Ed for sixth form. And by evidence the only source I have is Wikipedia.

Just seen this:
glinner.co.uk/untitled-20/?fbclid=IwAR0B3kPDQYmkd9Tpc3dOI6Sb7cblQpJsNGhjn9YXrkByRfP69e1Cib6Z4EA