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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

I spoke up! I actually did it!!!

66 replies

WineAndHobnobs · 01/07/2020 04:39

Sorry for the self-indlugent post, but I did something today that I have wanted to do for ages. I spoke up about my concerns regarding Self-ID. I was met with a barrage of 'TERF' but I stood my ground, presented reasoned arguments and did not allow the abuse to shut me down.

I am scared but I am so glad I did it. I am an older lady. I used to buy Spare Rib, which tells you how old I am. I thought we had won years ago, we didn't need Feminism anymore. I was wrong, we need it now more than ever.

Thank you FWR for being here, for educating us and for looking out for all of us.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/07/2020 12:35

Well done Thanks

GCITC · 01/07/2020 12:39

Well done!

I'm out of FB, some people agreed with me, others were angry, some had a reasoned debate.

I feel much better about myself and now post freely GC stuff. If TRAs can post endless anti JKR memes without fear why shouldn't I be able to post something pro women?

SarahTancredi · 01/07/2020 12:48

Well done op Flowers

OldeMagick · 01/07/2020 12:53

Well done OP! Smile

Signalbox · 01/07/2020 12:59

Well done OP.
I did too a few weeks ago on twitter and also with a couple of friends IRL. I didn't write anything too controversial, just that I stood with JK and how surprised I was at the backlash she was getting. One very old friend told me to "fuck off" and then blocked me. I was a bit shook up at first but I'm over it now. IRL it went better and it was a relief to speak to others who are uneasy about what is happening for various reasons.

MrJohnsonAteMyCustard · 01/07/2020 13:06

Thank you. That was a very brave step. It's heartening to hear of and see women standing up for all of us. And I was a Spare Rib reader! I miss it actually.

Soubriquet · 01/07/2020 13:09

I’ve been blocked and unfriended by a long time friend because I said I didn’t believe trans women are women. They are still trans women

This was after sharing my support for JK Rowling

Oh well. I Got over it

GCGayDad · 01/07/2020 13:19

Well done OP. I really admire you and others who have been brave enough to put their heads above the parapet.

I am so scared of doing it on FB, as part of my work involves winning contracts from public sector bodies. And it would be easy to link my personal profile to my professional ones. Also my partner is younger and has one of two very woke friends so I don't want to cause disruption on social outings. Pathetic of me really.

I'm also a bit worried as I've a real-life/FB friend has a trans child. I'm convinced that she has nuanced views about the whole debate as she is highly intelligent and works professionally in a controversial field. And I've never seen her join in the Trans debate on one side or the other.

Thank goodness there's still MN what we can post and discuss freely and anonymously.

Divoc2020 · 01/07/2020 13:20

Well done OP! Was this online or in real life?

I spoke up when we had some friends round for a BBQ last week and was met with the raised eyebrows and TWAW from the husband. I don't think I handled it that well - I got a bit ranty because I feel so strongly about it. He backed off a bit and said "well you clearly know more about this than I do" and changed thesubject.
However his wife (my friend) later contacted me to say she'd heard Baroness Nicholson on the radio and now understood some of what I'd been saying better.

I've also just had a chat with my son (20) as there was something in the news about women in the gaming community (which he feels part of). He is very against the abuse and bullying female gamers have suffered, so we talked a bit about that, and then I linked it to the JKRowling debate and said that I believe women are getting a rough deal in all sorts of areas. The gaming thing was a good way to get into the discussion I feel.

Divebar · 01/07/2020 13:30

I raised the subject with two men without declaring my views essentially saying “ do you think trans women are women” - the first one said essentially he had come around to view that they were but “ wouldn’t sleep with one” the other said he thought they were “ but it’s between women and trans women to sort out” so that was insightful. They’re both white, middle class professional men who are extremely conscious of their position. Once I started talking about sport they then changed their tune and felt it was unfair for trans women and women to compete against each other. They’re just afraid to be seen to say the wrong thing - as am I to be fair.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 01/07/2020 13:40

I post on FB. Links to articles. Follow fairplay for women and now JK Rowling etc.

All I get is radio silence.
However. I've had people then me IRL they feel the same.

invisibleoldwoman · 01/07/2020 13:59

Good for you OPI think when people like you speak up it carries a lot more weight than you realise. Like you I thought the major feminist battles were won and am horrified at what has been happening while we weren’t looking.

WanderinWomb · 01/07/2020 14:00

Well done you brilliant and brave woman.

It gets easier.

lady69 · 01/07/2020 14:19

good job! Together we stand ...

Skyliner001 · 01/07/2020 14:22

Tell us more, who did you speak up to? I've never heard the term Terf used to someone's face, what was the justification for being called that? What was the context of your discussion? Interested Smile

Divoc2020 · 01/07/2020 14:35

By the way, for those of you nervous of speaking up for the first time, I've found a really effective way of talking to people is to ask THEM questions!
To start with I used to panic that I wouldn't remember 'all the answers' to justify my position, then I realised I DIDN'T NEED TO!

If you stay calm and show interest, you can quickly get people thinking:
e.g.
Friend: I believe TWAW
Me: That's interesting, why do you believe that?
Friend: Well, if they want to live as a woman they should be able to
Me: Oh, I see. How does someone 'live as a woman'?
Friend: You know, wearing dresses and make up and stuff
Me: Oh. I don't wear dresses or make-up. Does that mean I'm NOT a woman?
Friend: Of course you are, that's not what I'm saying.
Me: So what is it that makes me a woman then?
Friend: Well, you know...
Me: Er, no. Not really.
etc etc

At some point they will say something which relates to biological sex.
(Unless of course they've really drunk the KoolAid and start talking about 'womanly essences' Confused )

Original poster
WineAndHobnobs · 01/07/2020 20:58

@Skyliner001 The context was we were discussing intersectionality with regard to something completely unconnected. As in, ‘you can’t believe this if you don’t believe that.’ I pointed out a conflict between feminism and trans rights as an example. I was told ‘actual’ feminists know that TWAW. Only TERFs didn’t believe that.

Now this is where it gets interesting... one of the guys mentioned JK Rowling and I showed them the screenshot of her posts followed by the abuse she received, that someone helpfully provided on here. I said that it was NEVER OK to threaten a woman with sexual violence just because you disagreed with her point of view. People were quite shocked to read those posts and agreed with me.

Then I talked about access to women-only facilities and how that will be open to abuse by opportunists who ID as women. One lady said the movement should be aimed at those men, not trans people in general. I used the line about offering women up as collateral and how is that OK. People went quiet at this point.

I didn’t expect this, but I actually think the message was getting through. I believe that most people are just ill-informed, as I was when I first started posting on this board.

OP posts:
Tonz · 01/07/2020 21:07

Well done you. Thank you Women are women, trans women are trans women, we are not the same and never will be

NiceLegsShameAboutTheFace · 01/07/2020 21:09

@WineAndHobnobs

Brilliant. And thank you Flowers

tennischamp · 01/07/2020 21:13

I just had one of the biggest arguments in 20 years with my DH as I finally spoke up about this, and called him out on lack of public support (he is a very regular Twitter user). His view was similar to pp, there were two sides to the story and between women and TW to sort out.
I did not stay calm... We have woke teenage girls and he has not entered into my discussions with them at all.
I am furious, he is an intelligent man who prides himself on engaged with current issues.

Talking about JK and his first comment was to start nitpicking with the accuracy of her statements. Then basically accused me of being transphobic even though the conversation started with me reiterating that people can 'wear what they like, call themselves what they like..'
Am quite shocked really

Original poster
WineAndHobnobs · 01/07/2020 21:38

@tennischamp, sorry you had that experience. My DH was peak-transed quite early on, when he discovered that Self ID meant that potentially pervy old blokes could ID as women and share changing facilities with our DD. He said he hadn't thought of it like that.

And I think that's the problem. When most people think of trans women, they imagine trannies of old: gay men who dress up as women, most of whom have fully transitioned. And who, by and large, are pretty harmless. This new breed of trans people: heterosexual, male-bodied, aggressive men, are, by contrast, utterly terrifying.

OP posts:
Sneakyfox · 01/07/2020 23:39

@WineAndHobnobs I'm new to this, I'm 41 and I'm ashamed to say that! Because someone else has always done the 'fighting for our rights' bit, throughout my career and life (apart from one example), I have never felt marginalised. But now I have children...and fuck this bullshit. I will not have my little girls rights diminished for the sake of being kind. She has had a hard enough start to life as it is, without all of this bs.

I am learning, I am listening and I will soon be ready to be accountable for my thoughts. Because of my family situation though , I need to be safe (I've name changed for this)...What a ridiculous statement to have to make in 2020!! But I've seen the abuse for simply stating biological fact!, I saw my first dick pic answer on twitter today to a reasonable, debatable tweet. What a world!! I hope to be in your position soon where i can argue a reasonable debate. Well done and keep up the good fight.

Thank you everyone on this board, you have opened my eyes. I think your army is growing due to your resilience...silently but purposefully.

Original poster
WineAndHobnobs · 02/07/2020 01:28

@Sneakyfox Take care and only speak up if you feel you can.

OP posts:
Original poster
WineAndHobnobs · 02/07/2020 09:24

Regarding the JK Rowling tweets... given that TRA's threatened sexual violence against a woman for voicing an opinion, how the fuck do they expect to be welcomed into our safe spaces? Like, really? They say they're not a threat, but their words say otherwise.

OP posts:
JemimaShore · 02/07/2020 09:37

Every one of those threatening tweets sent to JKR stands as evidence for why women need female only spaces.

Every time a TRA has posed with a baseball bat, or a knife, or said 'punch a terf' or "I'd love to rape a terf" - is evidence of the same.

It's a bit like in the olden days before transactivism was a thing (about 5 years ago!) - the comments below a feminist article, justified the need for feminism.