Radio 4 Women’s Hour Talking about Puberty Blockers Shortly

[rogdmum]

Not sure exactly when, but this morning on Women’s Hour (10:00-11:00) the recent changes to the NHS website re puberty blockers potential risks and unknowns will be discussed.

They've only gone and deleted their own tweet about it 😡 the intern must be on SM today

They deleted their tweet because it incorrectly stated "The NHS no longer says puberty blockers are irreversible". It should have said "reversible". It's actually a positive that they're keen to keep things accurate.

It’s interesting that women’s groups have been highlighting this for a couple of years, we were called TERFS. Well, we were right weren’t we! I wonder if Mermaids, Gids, Stonewall Etc will ever acknowledge that.

Debra Cohen mentioned the independent review that is being chaired by Dr Hilary Cass. I did wonder if the change to more cautious wording on the NHS website was due to initial findings from this group? Does anyone know when we can expect some kind of update from them?

www.england.nhs.uk/2020/01/update-on-gender-identity-development-service-for-children-and-young-people/

Halfeaten I think a small hurrah is about right.
But I was so pleased it was so sensible.
And that Debra Cohen is digging around the subject and passing being broadcast on other parts of the BBC

Maybe a medium cheer.

Thingybob
I suspect the "independent" review will be very heavily censored. Imaging the compensation that will have to be paid to the detransitioners if it goes anywhere near acknowledging that children are being coerced (there's a better word but I believe we're not allowed to use it) into believing that their angst about adolescence will be resolved with drugs and surgery.
This thread is a fascinating example of what is happening to children being removed from the pressure of schools who unwittingly collude in "fixing" children into an identity that they are too young to adopt for the rest of their lives:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3952739-The-effect-of-lockdown-on-transitioning-teen-girls

I didn't listen to the piece so thank you for discussing it here.
I got into 'the debate' through questioning why every guiding principle (evidence based medicine, ethics, affirmation, safeguarding, consent etc) is turned upside down for this particular patient group.
I believe I'm open minded enough to be shown a reason why but I just haven't seen good evidence of one.
It's a good step forward to be talking about the physical effects of blockers being irreversible although it's completely arse over face that it's retrospectively being looked at after the fact.
However I would also like to see more questioning of delaying puberty this way in and of itself. Even if every physical effects could be entirely reversed, what are the effects on development, well being and mental health of putting pause on biology, living in a hormonal limbo while your peers develop differently and then (if you desist) going through your puberty at a later age?
However reversible the physical effects these young people will never get the time back and it's such an specific, important time in development and (dare I say it) identity. I need evidence that this is beneficial and in their best interests and in which patients specifically and I just haven't seen any.

However I would also like to see more questioning of delaying puberty this way in and of itself. Even if every physical effects could be entirely reversed, what are the effects on development, well being and mental health of putting pause on biology, living in a hormonal limbo while your peers develop differently and then (if you desist) going through your puberty at a later age?
However reversible the physical effects these young people will never get the time back and it's such an specific, important time in development and (dare I say it) identity. I need evidence that this is beneficial and in their best interests and in which patients specifically and I just haven't seen any.

Excellent point Broomfondle

Sometimes children repeat a year at school for various reasons. DD's best friend did. Academically it has been very helpful for her, but she missed being with her friends and had difficulty breaking into established friend groups in her new year group.
Arresting development is an odd thing to want to do to a child and cannot be without problems even aside of the effects of the drugs.

Parents and yp need to think more carefully about the longterm effects.

Is that a quote from the programme? It seems to be throwing the whole responsibility onto the child and parents, who are not usually in a position to judge the medical implications for themselves. Surely it's the medical practitioners who 'need to think more carefully about the longterm effects'.

DS would absolutely have taken up an offer of delaying puberty aged 11-12. He did say at the time he wished he was a girl (had done at intervals since about age 2, in fact). He was isolated, bullied, delicately pretty, and may sound trivial he had a great treble voice and really struggled with the thought of losing it for some unknown world of spotty, gruff teenagery-ness.

I am embarrassed to say it, but if the option had been there, we might have let him take it. Very glad it wasn't.

@FannyCann

*However I would also like to see more questioning of delaying puberty this way in and of itself. Even if every physical effects could be entirely reversed, what are the effects on development, well being and mental health of putting pause on biology, living in a hormonal limbo while your peers develop differently and then (if you desist) going through your puberty at a later age? However reversible the physical effects these young people will never get the time back and it's such an specific, important time in development and (dare I say it) identity. I need evidence that this is beneficial and in their best interests and in which patients specifically and I just haven't seen any.*

Excellent point Broomfondle

Sometimes children repeat a year at school for various reasons. DD's best friend did. Academically it has been very helpful for her, but she missed being with her friends and had difficulty breaking into established friend groups in her new year group.
Arresting development is an odd thing to want to do to a child and cannot be without problems even aside of the effects of the drugs.

Haven’t a few of the children themselves spoke of this, that actually it was MORE painful in hindsight watch their friends go through puberty, maturing, growing, discovering new relationships, whilst they will still developmentally frozen as a child.

Which is why, I guess they rush into cross sex hormones. I would imagine the blockers actually amplify that ticking clock.

I just started a thread about this which I've asked MNHQ to remove.

I listened and thought it was well done. Unfortunately, it's not avilable to listen again. Hope they'll be fixing that. Also hope Deborah Cohen will be covering this on Newsnight.

Available now!

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kgsj

Starts about 15 minutes in

It's available now

twitter.com/Transgendertrd/status/1277947448514744320?s=20

I think it's great that this issue was given airtime, but I don't get why it was on Women's Hour? This issue isn't specific to women.

It was on Woman's Hour because it had already been on Newsnight and the WH people decided that it was an important issue that was of specific interest to women, and it is. I don't see the problem.

Thanks for this thread as I dont usually bother with Woman's Hour but really good that Deborah Cohen has been able to use the information that she got from her investigation for newsnight.

(Just a small note that it is Deborah not Debra or some other americanisation. As she has done so much for us think we should respect her name!)

I have just listened .

It all seemed tbh to he a very long winded , very roundabout way of saying they have no idea what they do long term or that as this is such a new path of treatment for GD there are no follow ups long term.

The fact there was nothing more to say was hidden ( or there was attempts to try and hide it ) behind more discussion that didnt really tell us anything .

Sorry I'm probably not explaining very well. Just that it sounded padded out on order to reduce the impact of what was said .

It seems to be throwing the whole responsibility onto the child and parents, who are not usually in a position to judge the medical implications for themselves.

so true...

Still, the parents can only go by what they have been told and the nhs clearly withheld information for no reason because as they said, nothing has changed so the guidance was changed originally because they must have caved into bullying and have now changed it back only to avoid law suits.

In what other areas of medicine do we treat minors with off label drugs?

It is nothing less than experimental, with unknown outcomes.

I despair at the fictional idea of a 'trans child,' puberty is integral to maturing-to delay/repress it will cause untold damage & leave the child unable to think critically. Now who would love children never to mature into fully formed adults, but to stay young and vulnerable? Who gains from this situation?

In what other areas of medicine do we treat minors with off label drugs?

Quite a lot, actually (I think because it's hard to get ethics permission for testing on children: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6677268/

However reversible the physical effects these young people will never get the time back and it's such an specific, important time in development

Reading this point from Broomfondle, I was reminded of something Stella O'Malley said in her TV programme. She found a group of very eloquent and open young trans men and women who had taken puberty blockers. They were all incredibly warm and, as a viewer, you totally wanted them to have happy and fulfilled lives. However, she noted that she thought they all seemed very young for their chronological age. It struck me as an important point - puberty is not just reaching sexual maturity but there is so much emotional and intellectual development.

However reversible the physical effects these young people will never get the time back and it's such an specific, important time in development

Yes the psychological effects of being well behind your peers are never mentioned really. If you did change your mind and came off them how is someone who already is distressed going to cope with being the last one of their group to develope. While all your friends have finished and/or coming out the other side where does that leave you...

Not to mention that actually not starting puberty in itself can be signs if a medical issue and why would you induce a medical issue that in other circumstances would require treatment to do the very opposite of what you are doing?

For anyone interested in the subject who didn’t see this thread- I posted this a few days ago. It’s a GIDS clinician talking about the unknowns around puberty blockers in 2018.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3950421-Talk-by-Dr-Aidan-Kelly-Tavistock

Kitties thank you will read through that link later, had no idea !