“Assigned at birth” - help me with the counter argument!

[CaveMum]

I’ve got into a discussion with a former colleague who is working on a “diversity and inclusion” policy for our industry as part of a “diversity steering group” set up by the industry governing body.

They’ve put together a learning pack (which I cannot access as I do not work in the appropriate area) but on Twitter I discovered that the very first question in the “Learning Pack” is “Sex is assigned at birth?” with a True/False option. Needless to say if you click on “False” you are told you are wrong.

I’ve raised the point that sex is observed and recorded at birth, not “assigned” and the rebuttal has come that it is a Government designated definition of sex. I was provided with a screenshot which I’ve since dug out as coming from the ONS.

My issue is that I’m having problems articulating why the phrase is problematic. No doubt it is another piece of Stonewall institutional capture and I’m pretty sure that the phrase is meaningless in terms of a legal definition of sex, but I need a coherent argument and evidence to back up why the phrase should not be used.

So far the topic of transgender has not come up, but I’m sure it will at some stage.

If sex is assigned at birth that implies that you could (as the parent) challenge it and get the hospital staff to say "fair one" and change your baby from say, a boy to a girl.

Does this ever happen? Even in Canadia?

I hate this phrase with a passion. I find it hard to take anyone seriously when they say it, as they are either saying it through sheer ignorance, or wilfully saying it to push an ideology I find problematic.

I always just reply that sex is determined at conception not birth but it is tiresome to have to point this out to grown adults who should know better. But then, that's the fucked up rock we spin on.

Knew my DDS sex at 11 weeks gestation.
She wasn't assigned anything at birth.,the midwives labeled her Baby Cross.I didn't get a ticket or certificate telling me she was assigned anything.
Does that mean I got it wrong?

Marking spot, as I'm anticipating the same issue.

@littlbrowndog

If it could be assigned at birth surely the baby girls that are killed just for being girls could be assigned as boys then they could be saved

Try that one on him

Yep. And boys would have FGM (circumcision also grim, but let's be real, it's not in the same ball park).

Nobody assigns sex at birth, FGS. Gender, yes - that's something we would probably agree with the TRAs on! Sex, no.

I think what happens is:

Baby’s sex observed and recorded at birth.

Baby’s gender assigned by parents with rigid homophobic gender stereotypes by putting “Daddy’s Little Princess” baby outfit on a girl, or trucks on a boy.

Baby girl grows up hating said stereotypes and wants to play with trucks. Rigid homophobic parents can’t cope so call Mermaids for support who tell parents their daughter must be trans for liking “boy things” and girl ends up on puberty blockers and testosterone.

Baby boy grows up hating said stereotypes and wants to play with dolls. Rigid homophobic parents can’t cope and call Mermaids for support who tell parents their son must be trans for liking “girl things” and boy ends up on puberty blockers and oestrogen.

Somewhere along the lines, jelly babies, GI Joe and Barbie are used to explain how this works, but those are just details.

Rigid homophobic parents

I like that - new phrase coined.

Could catch on. For example - "my parents were fucking RHPs".

Well let's go back to basics.

According to Cambridge dictionary, assigned means 'to choose'.

A relevant example given is:

todecideareasonfor something.

There is no 'choice' or 'decision' to be made regarding sex. The external genitalia of the baby means the baby is a boy, or a girl (or very rarely intersex). There is no decision to be made as it is determined by science; it would be like 'deciding' the earth is spherical. It just is, whatever we say.

We also do not 'assign' the baby as a human being, because again, the fact speaks for itself.

It gets tough if you're putting your job in jeopardy by not cooperating, but I'd want to say "You should say sex is observed at birth, not assigned at birth. What really counts is the chromosomes, so if anyone thinks the observation was wrong, they can always get it checked. Modern medical science is a great blessing." (Do not grin.)

I wonder if enterprises that have a scientific focus try to force this malarkey on employees. If lots of people say "The chromosomes, what about the chromosomes?" I could imagine the whole effort collapsing.

I’m not sure whether talking about chromosomes is a good idea, because then you might get pulled into the weeds of having to explain that people with DSDs aren’t between sexes.

I’d concentrate more on the fact that sex is observed, not chosen.

‘Don’t be so bloody stupid - you look, you see’

Just seen thisposted on the The Glinner Thing thread by Deliriumoftheendless and it made me laugh:

I believe they hold up a lipstick and a spanner and see which the newborn reaches for

I know that that thread is discussing male/female brains, but it works for the assigned at birth nonssence too, I think

I’d concentrate more on the fact that sex is observed, not chosen.

Agreed; would also suggest getting in a sneaky hint that OP knows more about this than the ex colleague does by stating that phenotypical sex is observed at birth; from this chromosomal sex is inferred rather than observed or assigned.

I’m not sure whether talking about chromosomes is a good idea, because then you might get pulled into the weeds of having to explain that people with DSDs aren’t between sexes.

But you could mess with their poor woke minds even more. "Yes, there are cases of anomalous chromosomes. That's why it's so important to do the testing., so you know if someone has a physical issue or a mental disorder. It makes sure that everyone with problems gets the kind of help they need."

The word 'gender' is a nuisance. It has become a poor substitute for the word 'sex' when it doesn't mean the same thing. Just because too many people were too squeamish to use the word sex to describe male or female.

I just don’t use it any more - when do you really need to use the word these days. It was a euphemism for ‘s-e-x’ back in the day.

*nonsense

CaveMum I've just had a look at the document from which your screenshot came and lower down in 'section 8 Summary' it states:

Sex and gender are different concepts that are often used interchangeably. The UK government refers to sex as being biologically defined, and gender as a social construct that is an internal sense of self, whether an individual sees themselves as a man or a woman, or another gender identity

So the ONS does know, but have used Stonewall (I assume) approved 'assigned at birth' instead of 'observed and recorded at birth'. COuld yu ask your colleague why someone would 'assign' a biologically defined class

I use it as a modifier or a verb, but rarely as a noun. I doubt I'm made more popular by my habit of asking people to clarify whenever they use "gender" and then when they say "euphemism for sex" asking them if they'd consider jettisoning that usage because it's being used as a political weapon against me, though.

Thanks again all. I’ve now got his email, it is polite and respectful (he’s a nice lad really) but totally drunk on the Kool Aid. He doesn’t mention trans but does waffle on about intersex so I shall spend this evening drafting and equally respectful but factual rebuttal of his arguments.

So if your mate goes to someone's house or the beach or whatever, and there are a couple of naked toddlers running around, he would not be able to say which was a girl and which was a boy?

I mean, bollocks. Literally.

I wish I'd seen this thread last week when I was doing a YouGov survey. It asked my gender assigned at birth and I answered none but couldn't articulate my objection to the question very well.

Explain to them that the term assigned at birth is one used by intersex people and it is inappropriate for them to appropriate a term used in intersex communities to discuss their experiences.

Had this discussion with dd yesterday pointed out its observed not assigned at birth she replied but intersex!!! I said that is a medical condition and not ordinary I pointed out we were 51% of the population if sex was assigned we would be made to be 50=50 I might have laughed at one point about how ridiculous it was English students using incorrect definitions to prove point that doesn't exist

I also pointed out many intersex people didn't want to be used in the trans debate its unfair to use them as examples because they can't help how they are born it's not like they chose to be born different

its mad that you should even have to spend time doing this though @CaveMum its exactly what people were saying the other day about how exhausting it all is. to have to give time and headspace to drafting a rebuttal to a work colleague that no there isnt actually a sorting hat that assigns sex and people with DSD are a tiny % of people who have asked repeatedly not to be dragged into this is just insane!!! its the definition of crazy.

‘DSD/ intersex is not a ‘third’ biological sex, it is a series of different biological pathways which produce different anatomical characteristics among people who are female or male. A very small number of babies (estimated 7/8 per year in the UK – possibly one every other year in Scotland) have the biology that means they could be raised either male or female and a legal sex assignment is made.‘
This is from a submission made to the Scottish government by DSD families www.parliament.scot/S5_European/Inquiries/CensusBill_DSDFamilies_CTEEAS518CB33.pdf It’s a 5 page document that sets out the facts about intersex/DSD very clearly and explains why it has nothing to do with trans.