If trans women are being murdered...

[Greenandcabbagelooking]

Something I was musing over today. I can’t ask this of real life friends because I would just end up being called a term again, and told to check my cis-privilege.

If trans women are being murdered at such a high rate, they are mostly likely being killed by men. Can people who want self ID not see why women do not want those same men who munder trans women in women’s prisons/changing rooms/race crisis centres etc? If we allow anyone who says they are a women in, then we increase the risk to both women and trans women.

The cognitive dissonance hurts my brain.

I goes without saying that murder is wrong, and I’m all for ways to keep everyone safe, but self ID to allow access to sex segregated spaces is not it.

I was reading a thread the other day quoting stats and trying to understand the number of trans women being murdered, sorry I don't have the source. It's one trans woman per year. Obviously that is one too many, but pales in to insignificance when compared to the number of women murdered by violent partners each year, or killed 'sex gone wrong' defence situations. Supporting women's rights just doesn't qualify for you for as many woke points as supporting trans rights.

Yes, this circular logic is a special feature of trans-ideology.

Almost no TW are being murdered in the UK. More are being murdered in the US. Often they work in the sex trade, which is also risky work for females. Brazil has a high murder rate for TW, but, again many are sex workers.

All of them are killed by men.

Thing is though - they are not. As I understand (there is a website that lists everything to do with crime relating to trans people. 8 trans people (1 non binary plus the rest trans women I think - haven’t got time to dig it out atm) were murdered in the uk in the last 10 years!! Conversely, trans women have murdered 12 people (one of them a trans woman I think) in the same timeframe. Compare that with the 3 women murdered by men every week in the uk. The constant mantra of ‘hate crime against trans is rocketing’ could have something to do with them getting hate crime defined as ‘anyone who says that biological sex is real’ -and pointing out that people who have been in the public domain as men are now actually women because they say so. Also, when asked why the transition/questioning rate in children is rocketing - the lobbyists and activists point to ‘greater acceptance in society’ as the main reason.... they can’t have it both ways!!

I saw there was a march today for black TW. In the meantime two females were murdered in a park and the police took photos of their bodies and I'm seeing disapproval but not widespread uproar.

In the UK one trans person has been murdered per year over the past decade. (Yes, one is too many.)

If there are 300,000 trans people in the UK (at the low end of the range given by the UK government), then that's a rate of 3 trans people per million per year.

In the UK the murder rate for males is about 15 per million per year, around double that for females of about 8 per million per year.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/homicideinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2019#what-do-trends-in-homicide-look-like

The majority of these murders aren't 'hate crimes' either. They weren't killed for being trans.
This was from a Rose of Dawn video. The UK is one of the safest places in the world for trans people.

The reason why the high murder rate of trans people can be said to be so high is that it usually isn't based on trans people in the UK but is often based on very atypical communities, for example based on the murder rate of trans sex workers in Brazil.

Sex workers in Brazil are most at risk, but the estimates are that around 10 females per day are murdered in Brazil

To put the figures for Brazil into perspective, it would be useful to see a comparison between the murder rates of trans sex works with those of women sex workers.

Although still nothing to do with risks faced by trans people in the UK.

My DH has a saying for any alleged wrongdoing: Show me the bodies. His saying is crudely apt for the argument that transwomen are being murdered at a huge rate. But...where are the bodies?

However it is true that 2 to 3 women ARE murdered every week. The bodies are there, sometimes the bodies are even the unwilling fodder for selfies, taken by people these poor dead women and their families should have been able to trust. I just do not have any sympathy left over, sorry, for those bodies that are not there.

In the UK it is simply emotional blackmail to convince the public that privileged, mostly white heterosexual, males and more oppressed than all females.

They use 'cis' so they can insert males into the category of woman/female then tell us we are oppressing them with this imaginary 'cis privilege'

Classic DARVO. Turning the oppressor into the oppressed. Gaslighting. Coercive control.

Ask your friends if the victims of FGM or child marriage or sex trafficking (99% female) have 'cis privilege' or if their abusers would've stopped if they had said they identified as male.

It isn't true in the US either. Someone did an analysis - I can dig out the link. In the US, like here, rates of murder of trans people are no higher than the general population. It's just a lie - this movement lies like nothing I've ever seen before.

My DH has a saying for any alleged wrongdoing: Show me the bodies. His saying is crudely apt for the argument that transwomen are being murdered at a huge rate. But...where are the bodies

I like your DH! I lost a friend recently for using this. Had the whole "murdered all over the UK and beaten up in toilets daily" speech. I asked for receipts. I had the true figures, and the sexual assaults on women and girls in mixed sex spaces. She refused to believe me. Refused to look. This was someone very intelligent, who had no issue researching any other subject.

Yes. It's imo obvious. But apparently not to them. Because as soon as a person says they're trans we apparently need to believe them...

Brazil has a high murder rate for TW, but, again many are sex workers.

The murder rate for TW in Brazil is an order if magnitude LESS than the murder rate for other men in Brazil. It is also considerably lower than the murder rate of women there.

Last year world wide there were less than 400 murders of TW out of nearly half a million murders.

No one seems to care about the truth anymore. No one researches for themselves. They just pass on the mistruths until they become the only truth. If I see another Pride tweet saying the Stonewall riots were started by a black TW I will scream. Anyone who points out the mistake is called a bigot

There were 241 female victims of homicide in the year ending March 2019 – the most since 2006. The ONS said the drop in offences recorded as murder, manslaughter or infanticide in the 12-month period was driven by a fall in the number male victims, which went down by 11%, from 484 to 429.13 Feb 2020

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/13/female-homicide-victims-england-wales

According to these figures, there was one trans person murdered in the UK in that time, and a total of nine trans people were murdered in the UK between 2008 and 2017. That’s an average rate of one victim per year.

www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk

That's the only figures I could find..

Do a search for 'women killed 2020.' What do you notice about the results?

UK only figures that is

Funny how they know TWANW when it comes to this.

I copied this from another MN article a few years ago. It’s a bit out of date as there have been 3 murders of transwomen in the UK since, but the point is still relevant - all killed by men, none killed for “being trans”.

“According to this source transrespect.org/en/map/trans-murder-monitoring/, 8 transgender people have been murdered in the UK since 2008

Their list (taken from various PDFs on their site):

2015
Vikki Thompson - not murder but accidental death, initially reported as suicide www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/19/jury-returns-verdict-on-transgender-woman-found-dead-in-male-prison

Vanessa Santillan - killed by husband because of sex work www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34591733

2013
Jacqueline Cowdrey - found NOT to have been murdered www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-26145984

2012
Chrissie Azzopardi - killed over drug debts www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/oct/18/chrissie-azzopardi-murder-life-sentence

2011
Lionel/Suzie Morl - described as transvestite, murdered by two Big Issue sellers (male & female) to live off his disability benefits www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/guilty-couple-who-killed-transvestite-689598

2010
Sonia/David Burgess gender fluid lawyer killed by a gender fluid/trans client www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16305570

2009
Andrea Waddell
www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/andrea-waddell-strangled-client-4226743 - sex worker killed by customer. Customer claimed not to know Waddell was transsexual. "During the trial, jurors were asked to consider whether McMillan killed her after discovering she was transgender, or because she was unable to perform sexually for him because of physical ailments after illnesses including fibromyalgia."

Destiny Lauren sex worker - killed by customer www.islingtongazette.co.uk/news/life-sentence-for-killer-of-transsexual-prostitute-destiny-lauren-1-680308 Customer had previously sought the services of transsexual prostitutes going by the names of "Fransexual" and "VickisDomain"

So in summary, not 8 murders but 6, of which:

3 were sex workers killed because of their sex work
2 were killed for financial reasons
1 was killed by another transgender person

"A total of 152 UK sex workers have been murdered since 1990. According to the charity National Ugly Mugs, 85% of street prostitutes have experienced violence and only 25% of victims are willing to report crimes to the police."

news.sky.com/story/sex-workers-still-vulnerable-10-years-after-ipswich-murders-10679614

There were around 571 homicides in the last year in England & Wales, that's approximately 1 per 100,000 people.

Thus over the 9 years 2008 to 2016, given six homicides, that implies a transgender murder rate of 0.67 per year, assuming transgender people are as likely to be killed as the rest of the country. That would suggest that there are only 67,000 transgender people in England & Wales.

However, the LOWEST estimate for transgender people is 0.1% (so around 57,000), and GIRES says it is 0.2% at the very minimum (so around 114,000).

Obviously given the tiny numbers you can't be too specific with these statistics, we aren't taking about a population (of murdered trans people) so much as vanishingly rare cases.

With regard to sex work, there are apparently around 72,800 sex workers in the UK of which 4% (approx 2900 are transgender). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_Kingdom#Extent

Given the overall sex worker murder rate of ~6 per year, that implies 1 in every 12,000 sex workers will be murdered in any given year. Therefore given the 2900*9 = 26,100 transgender sex worker years in the period under study, we'd expect 26100/12000 = 2.175 murders of transgender sex workers. The total of 3 is very slightly above average in that respect, however statistically it's not even remotely significant (5 would be significant at the 95% confidence interval). I am not 100% clear if the case of Vanessa Santillan is included within the figures, as Santillan was murdered not by a client, but a jealous husband.

Also note that in general 1 in 780 people are sex workers (and sex workers have a homicide rate 8 times higher than the general population) but as many as 1 in 20 transgender people may be sex workers, so there will be a higher rate of murder.

Moreover, all of the murderers were biologically male (and indeed most transgender people are male). The male murder rate is around 75% higher than the female murder rate in the country as a whole.“

Karen Ingala Smith broke the stats down. No, trans women are not being murdered at very high rates, and it's a shitty thing to tell them that they are, actually. You tell people they're hated and at huge risk often enough, they will believe you. And then you have a fired up, angry, paranoid group willing to support extremism - ironically, given what is said about us.

It's like the completely bogus trans teen suicide stats. They fall apart when you look into the methodology for more than three minutes, and the only reliable data is the FOI request for GIDS stats on the issue. That says that they have over 2700 referrals a year, one suicide attempt a year, and no successful suicides. That's not bad for a cohort that size, especially to mental health services. That's good news. These are vulnerable kids told that half of them will try to kill themselves, and all data says you never tell a group of people that, especially kids, as it increases risk that they will do just that. Talk about weaponising suffering.

Those stats are freely available on the most recent annual GIDS FOI page for anyone who wants them.

Thank you for all the links.

As I said, any murder is one too many, but the way this stat is represented is so wrong. I got caught up in a Black Trans Lives Matter protest today, and they made it sound like trans women are being killed at the rate of a genocide. Or that they are being killed for being trans. Neither of which appears to be true.

It’s depressing how many of my friends have swallowed this line.

They aren't

26 transpeople , mostly black biological males, murdered in the US last year.

If we follow the logic then black transwomen should be at higher risk than black men, since it is claimed (if falsely) that being trans puts you at risk
There were 6237 murders of black men in 2018

However population estimates are 0.8% trans for black people on the US. For biological males this will be higher, maybe 1%.
So we would expect around 62 black transwomen to be murdered. Instead there were barely 20.

Even if not all were identified as trans, which is increasingly unlikely as time goes on with trans murders guaranteed high profile, Gofundme, etc., it still suggests a very low risk, lower than the natal sex.