“We wanted someone who would turn around and say, ‘this is your child, what do you want?’, rather than them telling us their demands for putting their lives on hold for nine months."

[niceberg]

I used to be generally supportive of non-commercial surrogacy until threads here made me think more deeply, and explore further, the issues with it.

Being aware of the law commission consultation on surrogacy law, a link to an article on a gay couple's trouble with surrogacy caught my eye. I'm afraid it's Pink News, which I didn't realise until I clicked. But I'll give you a potted summary to save you giving them more clicks.

The headline of the piece is "A Devon gay couple have spoken out about their rollercoaster journey to becoming parents, highlighting the desperate need for surrogacy reform in the UK." OK thinks I, there must have been some traumatic event / breakdown in the relationship with the woman / trouble getting parental orders. Something difficult for them which I'm prepared to read about even if my ultimate concern will always be the welfare of the baby and its mother.

But the story contains nothing of the sort. It was as straightforward for the intended parents as you can get. They took the baby home the day after he was born. The 48 hours waiting for the DNA test result was apparently a complete nightmare (!). They had to wait the requisite 6 weeks to apply for the parental order...um, yes, and?

My violin was already small and it shrank to miniscule then disappeared completely by the end. Now I just feel sick at the entitled approach. Maybe Pink News is doing them a disservice - it's all in the editing right? - but clearly they think this is an angle that will resonate with their readers.

@CarlottaValdez

Making it illegal is actual quite easy. Many countries have outlawed the practice and we should, too.

Who gets prosecuted and for what? Not being snide, genuinely interested.

Just do away with the parental orders.

Prosecute the commissioning parents, the clinic and Dr's involved in the insemination (if applicable) and any company/person involved in arranging (pimping out) the surrogates and their buyers

In Germany, which outlawed surrogacy in 1991, all health care professionals who provide services in a surrogacy arrangement are prosecuted. So are people who match up potential birth mothers with people seeking to acquire a child via surrogacy.

If the latter do so in Germany, they cannot legally get parental rights, not even in a double donor surrogacy. According to a law added in 1997, the woman who gives birth to a child is the legal mother of that child. She cannot pass that right to someone else outwith an adoption. If she is married, the father is her husband.

This makes acquiring parental rights over a child resulting from a surrogacy arrangement massively difficult if not impossible. Anyone seeking to circumvent the German law through international surrogacy arrangements has to clear a lot of bureaucratic hurdles, which does put people off very effectively.

If neither the mother nor her husband are German, the child is not a German national and cannot get a German passport. Without it the child cannot be taken to Germany. If the mother is not German and a foreign court has awarded parental rights to a German couple, a German court may accept this ruling. But it may not.

Like with all laws prohibiting certain behaviours or events, it is not 100% effective. But it is effective enough.

The German model sounds much better than what we have certainly.

It's not perfect though. I live in Germany now and we know a couple who have children from a surrogacy arrangement in Ukraine. They hurdles do need to be far higher than they are. That's why I think it needs to be a blanket ban on parrntal/adoption orders and refusal of citizenship on all overseas arrangements, regardless of whether or not the baby is the genetic offspring of the commissioning parents.

I have to admit I was cautiously supportive of surrogacy until our acquaintances did this. It made me really uncomfortable and made me really look at why. What was interesting is that myself my husband and our family, whilst happy for our friends, all felt the same conflict and uncertainty about it all. Whilst my friends have proven to be good and loving parents, I still sometimes feel sympathy when I think of those children's surrogate mother and how desperate she must have been.

This case is awful. They just took the baby off the mother after impregnating her. I feel terribly sorry for her and the baby

I agree, it's not to late to ban it completely. Whilst the UK Law Commission public consultation is closed you can still register your thoughts on surrogacy with your MP. Here is a template letter.
nordicmodelnow.org/category/surrogacy/

Here is another story, to show an example of UK 'altruistic' surrogacy birth during Covid/Lockdown.

I noticed that the article focused a lot on her reproductive system letting her down, and that is sad of course, but she had fallopian cancer and was 40 years old. She went to Prague to circumvent the Uk system which wouldn't allow her to have treatment and she had grown up children who were only mentioned at the end of the article so she wasn't childless. The surrogate mother had given birth for their friends a year before, it has a nasty feel of passing a woman around for birthing purposes to me.

Also the language of 'we' were having a C section - pretty sure there's only one person having their stomach cut open - with the commissioning father in the operating theatre and commissioning mother staying where, on the ward with the baby? And then driving back with a newborn? They can't stay in their car seat for long periods of time as it's not safe.

Every surrogacy story I read, and I've read a few now, I can't stop thinking of the baby and how they must miss their mum.

www.falkirkherald.co.uk/news/people/couples-joy-family-complete-after-emotional-13-year-wait-2894340

“You don’t have to be a woman to bring up a child.”

No but you have to be a woman to give birth to one!

Christ men buying and selling womens bodies and babies. It disgusts me to the point I want to vomit.

The head of the Ethics committee for Surrogacy UK once wrote that a surrogate mother is usually a woman.

Usually.

Maybe there is a secret group of 'trans men' volunteering their womb for rent. The sad thing is it's likely to be the women who are throwing our language in the bin that would 'be kind' and offer themselves up, despite the risks etc and then moan that we are being 'sooo mean, they just want a baby'.

The sad thing is it's likely to be the women who are throwing our language in the bin that would 'be kind' and offer themselves up, despite the risks etc and then moan that we are being 'sooo mean, they just want a baby'.

I also can't help feeling there is a certain irony in the current fervour for removing any historical references to our colonial past and slavery. Terrible wrongs obviously, but well in the past. How many of the people calling for removal of statues etc see no problem in going to Ukraine or one of the Asian countries where commercial international surrogacy is still allowed* to buy a baby?

*A lot of Asian countries where there was a surrogacy boom have since banned commercial/international surrogacy due to the shocking exploitation. (Which isn't to say that it doesn't go on underground). I confess I have lost track of where it is legal and where it is not.

Off the top of my head, India, Cambodia and Nepal now have bans.

Off the top of my head, India, Cambodia and Nepal now have bans

Happy to be corrected obviously, please update me! It really is quite fast moving such that I find myself losing track. I'm not entirely sure of the situation in India, as there was a much vaunted ban but I think I saw that it has yet to be passed in Parliament or some other legal nicety.

FannyCann, its people trafficking and human exploitation and I do think this sits uncomfortably with the current thoughts about slavery. Humans as commodities for the super rich.

When you hear celebrities talk about how they go their surrogate child I always find it deeply disturbing.

That's why I think it needs to be a blanket ban on parrntal/adoption orders and refusal of citizenship on all overseas arrangements, regardless of whether or not the baby is the genetic offspring of the commissioning parents.

My understanding is that family courts take the view that a baby has its own rights (quite correctly) and therefore must not be denied citizenship.
I think it went to the European court of human rights and a precedent was set. So they can't refuse citizenship to imported babies. And when people arrive back in their country with a baby, what to do? How is the baby best served? Decisions must be made in the baby's best interests. Unless there are obvious reasons to remove the baby from the buyers commissioning parents, they will get to keep the baby.

Here is a case where a judge in Spain tried hard to resist. He was overruled. He did get the last say by making conditions which proved insurmountable but this case is the exception from those I have seen elsewhere.

https://mercatornet.com/a-view-from-the-inside-about-commercial-surrogacy/63012/

We loved her when she was carrying our baby. But once we were successfully out of India, our surrogate had disappeared from our thoughts.

Sums it up really.

But perhaps he has belatedly come to a limited under that what he did was wrong. Not enough to want ban surrogacy. Just to promote his "ethical" version of it.

I don’t support surrogacy programs in developing countries anymore

*limited understanding

The head of the Ethics committee for Surrogacy UK once wrote that a surrogate mother is usually a woman.

(Goes on Python-esque are you going to gestate the fetus in a box rant.)

Again, this is why linguistic slippage and courtesy pronouns are dangerous. Using them allows for a deliberate fudging of what's being done to who and by whom.

Germany sounds like a template to follow.

However, with the European court of Human rights overruling local decisions it may have difficulty policing international surrogacy.

I believe surrogacy tourism should be made a criminal offence in the same way that paedophile tourism is illegal.
Buyers Parents arriving home with a new baby should be prosecuted for people trafficking.

Human rights and the child's best interests may mean the baby is entitled to citizenship and the buyers parents get to keep the baby.
However, if they were guaranteed to be prosecuted for people trafficking and to get a criminal record, I wouldn't mind if they got off with a suspended sentence and derisory fine. Most people would not want to be prosecuted or to end up with a criminal conviction. A couple of well publicised cases would serve as an example and put the message across.

Thailand also banned it but a news story last month exposed a surrogacy ring doing it underground but they have been caught and I think an example will be made of them.

"On Tuesday, police arrested a woman suspected of helping run the surrogacy operation from a house in Phra Pradaeng district, Samut Prakan.Police said that about 10 suspected members of the surrogacy ring are being sought, several of them are doctors or medically trained."

www.thestar.com.my/aseanplus/aseanplus-news/2020/05/27/four-medics-questioned-in-wombs-for-hire-case-in-thailand

Arrests then went up as they found more involved - I believe the two stories are connected.

www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/1926532/surrogacy-gang-arrests-increase-to-22-say-police

I think Cameroon are looking at banning it and I wouldn't be surprised if Kenya followed.

Ukraine is also under review informally.

I'd really like to see what Ireland is going to do, as the 8th was repealed and abortion is now legal but not accessible, it shows that women have reproductive rights so how does this tally with there being no federal law around surrogacy?

As has been mentioned upthread, I think it needs to be made socially unacceptable. None of this nicey nice acceptance. Blunt "so you bought the baby from an impoverished woman" responses should anyone get the opportunity.

Thank you RedToothBrush

We need to confront this where we see it.

Thanks @OhHolyJesus

It's good to see some of the countries on the African continent looking to ban it because I think there is a boom in some of the others..Nigeria springs to mind.

As I say, it is like whack a mole - ban it in one place and the show moves on to another so I do find myself struggling to keep up!

I think Mexico is another place to watch.

Anyone know anything about the situation in any of the Latin American countries? I know there was at least one Argentinian couple collecting a baby from Ukraine so presumably surrogacy isn't easy or legal in Argentina?

RE Latin America, my impression has been that the thing really stopping this from taking hold in the poorest areas there is that the Catholic church doesn't like surrogacy.

the Catholic church doesn't like surrogacy.

Silver linings and all that!

My own MP is a staunch Catholic and he does seem to be concerned about the Law Commission proposals and issues relating to surrogacy. Anyway, he's my local MP so that's who I get to go to, and hope they will raise objections when the LC proposals hit parliament.

I can see why religious people, even if not generally what you'd consider staunch supporters of women's rights, would have some concerns about surrogacy. I'd be curious to see if the current Pope has said anything specific about it, since his background is very much in working with the poor and the economic exploitation angle should in theory be hard for a Christian to miss.

My MP is Lloyd Russell-Moyle so I’m not sure if writing to him will have any value judging by his completely dismissive attitude to women thus far.

I wonder how many of the supports watch The Handmaid's Tale? They will doubtless claim that surrogacy is completely different but somehow it's not the wealthy and powerful who end up carrying the child.