Transsexual/Transvestite/Transgender

[shinyhappywoman]

Hi everyone, just trying to get to grips with what it means to be transgender and how that differs from transsexual (is that term still used?) and transvestite. I've read on this board that many transgender people don't have any surgery but simply dress as a woman/man (as the case may be). If that's the case, how are they any different from a transvestite? Sorry if this comes across as rather ignorant, just hoping someone can clarify. Thanks

I feel like their co-opting my condition and exploiting protections that were originally made to make life for us a bit more comfortable.

I'm sorry - you pretty well answered already!

Thank you so much for starting this thread! I am too absolutely confused with all the definitions. And thank you everyone for posting - reading with interest!

On a similar note, why has 'drag queen' become a protected identity, as opposed to something people do for fun or work?

Don’t worry, I’m going to ask my cousin Bunbury as they are an expert.

@wellbehavedwomen

No worries! I agree with you, we need to ensure nobody is discriminated against, let alone subject to hate. I made the choice of how to deal with my condition for my own reasons and I'm grateful that there are protections in place to prevent discrimination for having done what's best for me.

I agree that the safeguards and checks of GRC law needs to remain as thorough as they currently are, they're not dehumanising and I'm not humiliated by being trans - I can recognise that regulation needs to be in place to prevent predators abusing the system and it's why I'm so vehemently against self-ID. Some reforms to it may need to be made now that we have a whole 'umbrella' of trans, but for the most part I'm happy with it (although I would be very for it being a free process too).

I am absolutely in favor of third spaces - while everyone boils it down to the toilet issue, it is in hospitals, prisons, women's refuges etc. where the precedent set by toilets is most important. I believe additional third spaces (rather than removing/invading single sex spaces) is the way to go. As much as TRAs want to believe they are the most oppressed group, trans people really aren't - we're at the safest place we have ever been and ignoring/damaging the sex based rights of women, especially vulnerable women is disgraceful.

I also agree that more need to be done to differentiate between Gender Dysphoria and Gender Expression - so many of TRAs I know have real difficulty differentiating the two, especially young females. I believe that more needs to be done to allow freedom of expression without having to blame it on a very convenient condition - if you say I have gender dysphoria for the most part people nowadays will respond with compassion, whereas if you are Gender Non-conforming they often challenge you (not being 'feminine enough'/'are you sure you're not trans?').

TThank you so much for sharing your views, I appreciate you taking the time to engage - I know people can be reticent to talk openly about the subject because TRAs push back so loudly but you're right that compromise is the only way forwards and it's only by having open discussion that we can reach one that works for all of us with no one being left disadvantaged.

I believe that more needs to be done to allow freedom of expression without having to blame it on a very convenient condition - if you say I have gender dysphoria for the most part people nowadays will respond with compassion, whereas if you are Gender Non-conforming they often challenge you (not being 'feminine enough'/'are you sure you're not trans?').

I read an article a while back which talked about a 6 year old transgirl - the mother seemed to mostly focus on how they had hated boys toys and clothes - couldn't help but wonder whether the child would have been happy living as a boy if they'd been allowed to wear princess dresses and play with dolls etc. But perhaps it was easier/ less challenging to mother's world view to believe they had a daughter rather than a non confirming son. Of course in the fullness of time that child may well have confirmed that they had gender dysphoria but I would have thought it better not to make such life altering decisions at such a young age.

The child may grow up to realise they do have gender dysphoria there's just as good a chance the child could grow up to be a very happy boy. That's one of the reasons why I believe that children should be left out of the gender identity debate. Transitioning as an adult has been the hardest decision I've ever made and I understand all of the ramifications of it, I don't think a child can fully understand the extent of the path transition takes you on.

Many of the ways Gender Identity is explained to children reinforces harmful stereotypes - that you can't be a masculine woman, to look a certain way you have to actually be a man. It's not responsible to use a 'gender spectrum scale' to say man looks like this, woman looks like this and if you don't fit those you're neither. I know TRAs think it's inclusive of everyone but it's really not.

Conversely, gendered stereotypes are deep rooted in society and I know some parents (who have no experience with the trans community) being the worst cases of 'this is boy/girl stuff, you're not supposed to play with it' and are deeply uncomfortable when their child goes against the status quo.

It's hard to talk about non-conformity, as humans we want a place to fit in. If you're taught as a child that only girls are allowed to play with barbies, is a boy going to be able to tell his parent 'I'm a boy, I want to play with my Barbie' or is he going to think well I must be a girl then.

But really we just need to let kids be kids, support them in playing with/dressing in/doing what they like and leave the issue of gender identity until they're older.

Obviously it's much harder when your child comes to you and says they're trans - I'd personally advocate watchful waiting instead of transition but each family has to make their own decision based on what's in the best interest of the child.

Until someone's developed into adulthood (and even then there's no guarantee) I don't think they have the experience in critical thinking to challenge what they've been taught/distinguish between that and Gender Dysphoria.

Sorry :s I've realised my posts are getting longer and longer, let me know if it's too much.

I absolutely love reading your posts @Eo91 - definitely not too long! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts 💐

I understand that some people can't transition for various medical reasons, but when activists say you don't need to have gender dysphoria to be trans/call themselves trans with no intention to transition I feel like their co-opting my condition and exploiting protections that were originally made to make life for us a bit more comfortable.

Absolutely and this is the dark side of this activism.

Stonewalls definition of trans to be so "all encompassing" has thrown a lot of people with very different presentations into the same bucket.

I have a lot of time and sympathy for people suffering from GD having lived with someone transitioning (house mate MtF) for a year.

Their mental health was shattered by their GD and transitioning was for them the only way they felt able to live a fulfilled life. They knew the risks but after much therapy/contemplation and research they made an decision to fully transition.

The concept of a "lady dick" for them was incomprehensible. It was the part of their body they "hated" the most as it was for them so linked to the masculinity they could not associate with.

I say this because it makes me sad to see people like my former housemate and yourself Eo91 discussed interchangeably with people calling themselves trans yet other that expressing an alternate gender identity through clothing have no intent to transition at all.

This is why we m against self ID.

Express yourself how you like but utilising the protections meant to support people with GD and women under the guise of the trans banner is something I find both selfish and galling.

Many of the ways Gender Identity is explained to children reinforces harmful stereotypes - that you can't be a masculine woman, to look a certain way you have to actually be a man. It's not responsible to use a 'gender spectrum scale' to say man looks like this, woman looks like this and if you don't fit those you're neither

Thank you - that is so true. I find it enormously depressing that we seem to be going backwards and regressing to 1950s gender stereotypes. When I was a child, I learnt that I could wear what I wanted, be what I wanted, and that gender stereotypes were old-fashioned and something to laugh at.

Now, the whole gender thing has raised these up, and, along with other political changes in the World, it’s just so depressing. I don’t understand how we got to this point.

@Eo91 not too long at all, thank you. And it seems that we have identical views. In fact all the women I know offline who share my opinions do - I think it's probably a more common position than people realise.

It's an interesting thing re the law protecting people from abuse. As far as I see it, those with gender dysphoria are covered under gender reassignment, whereas actually those bullied for gender non-conformity - which would include cross-dressing - are covered under sex. If sex were covered under hate crime, then eg a cross dresser being abused could cite that, as it relies upon bullying people defying conventional gender roles. So a woman or man dressing and presenting in that way wouldn't be abused, when a man or woman is.

I'm afraid I do think the needs of people with gender dysphoria are being used as Trojan horses to roll back women's rights. And I don't think the general public realise that it isn't people like you we're talking about, now. It's not about finding a way to support transsexuals in their lives, while ensuring everyone is respected. If only it were.

Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I do hope you do have peer support, from people who have also transitioned, and who share your perspective. In so many things in life that peer support can be the one thing that makes a difference. It must be very isolating to hear a discussion about you, when you fundamentally disagree with a lot of the views you're 'supposed' to agree with.

*who share my gender critical opinions

(Though interestingly, some who think they are trans rights supporting do, too. They don't realise quite where the conversation has moved - that their liberal views of a decade ago would now be seen as transphobic.)

@wellbehavedwomen

It is more common a position than people think, we just dont pipe up about it often to escape getting mobbed when people rush to the defence of what that think are people like me.

And it is really interesting that I'm protected by Gender Reassignment but women aren't being protected by Sex even though they're supposed to be equally protected characteristics - women should have protections for non-conformity and the one thing that needs to be changed is the lack of enforcement of single-sex spaces. Women need them, it's written in law that you have the right to have them.

Women have been very generous in just letting us be in the past when we were a small group. But we've got an umbrella situation now and Trans has snowballed in size to include all sorts of presentations and it's understandable that for Women need their own space - we need to be campaigning for new spaces instead of continuing to use yours.

It's been an odd experience watching the gender debate growing around me and lonely at times, but I've finally found myself a strong peer group who share similar opinions but are happy to call each other out. It helps keep us sane in the sea of 'Transwomen are Women.'

@Eo91 I'm glad you have a strong peer group. It's so important.

I absolutely agree third spaces are necessary, and would be a large part of the answer.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I hope it goes without saying that you have allies in wanting your rights and freedoms to be respected - and thank you for also respecting ours.

Stonewall uses trans as a very large umbrella to cover everything from illness to fetishes.

Trans

An umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth.
Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois."
I looked up the neutrois identity and found this: "neutrois (not comparable) (rare, of a person) Having a null or neutral gender (being neither male nor female), and having or seeking to have no or reduced signs of physical sex."