Rape victims will choose gender of their examiner (Scotland)

[stumbledin]

Scotland’s health secretary has said she is confident rape and sexual assault victims will be able to choose the gender of their forensic medical examiner under new legislation.

Jeane Freeman told Holyrood’s health committee people will be able to self-refer and should not have to wait more than three hours for examination.

At a previous evidence session on the proposed Forensic Medical Services (Victims of Sexual Offences) (Scotland) Bill, Sandy Brindley, Rape Crisis Scotland chief executive, said access to a female doctor “is the most important issue brought up by complainers”.

She added delays in waiting for examinations is also a key issue.

Ms Freeman told the committee she has “confidence” victims will be able to choose to be examined by a man or

............

Anyone a Times Subscriber. Really want to know are they talking about choosing a "gender" or do they mean sex.

Amazed to see someone from Rape Crisis Scotland apparently openly talking about why women have suffered male sexual violence would want to be examined by another woman. (I thought both Scotland RCC and WA were very woke and TWAW)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rape-victims-will-choose-gender-of-their-examiner-cxjtbr5l0

....or woman under the proposals. She said: “People should have that choice; it is very important, particularly in those circumstances.

Really want to know are they talking about choosing a "gender" or do they mean sex. It does not clarify what a man or woman is.

“There are clearly some levels of a restriction to an extent in that, where we have a team of sexual offence examiners that is predominantly male, those individuals will be on contracts and so you have to find other ways to add to the number."

Also, it may not reach to small islands.

Ms Freeman told the committee she has “confidence” victims will be able to choose to be examined by a man or......

anyone who identifies as a women?

They really need to start using the word sex. If they say you can choose 'gender' of examiner it means fuck all. It could include anyone and everyone.
Needs to be sex and exemptions under EA of ALL males.

I posted this in another thread:

Great correction by Jean Freeman, after the National headline

'Jeane Freeman said rape and sexual assault victims would be able to choose the gender of their forensic medical examiner under new legislation'

When pulled up she replied on Twitter:

Actually what I said was ‘choose the sex...” I’m not responsible for how a journalist reports

Just shows how easily words are changed to suit an agender. The journo should've used sex in the quote.

Good correction, and I'm disappointed in the Times using gender when clearly it should have been sex.

One part made me
“There are clearly some levels of a restriction to an extent in that, where we have a team of sexual offence examiners that is predominantly male, those individuals will be on contracts and so you have to find other ways to add to the number.

...maybe areas shouldn't have a team which is predominantly male on contract as sex offence examiners?

I've noticed the word gender being used more and more when people mean sex, even on Mumsnet there are countless threads about gender reveal or guess the gender from a scan photo when what they mean is sex.

I do think we need to be clearer what we mean when we talk about sex and gender.

Well in the current climate that's meaningless isn't it.

And I can't believe the paper changed her words.

Actually I can.

...maybe areas shouldn't have a team which is predominantly male on contract as sex offence examiners?

As I understand it, you can't just have any female doctor doing this type of examination. To work in this area you need specialist training as a sex offence examiner, and if employed on such a contract you will be on call 24/7 and be expected to come in at very short notice at all hours. Given that women predominantly have childcare responsibilities etc on top of their full time jobs, such types of work will be off-putting and so you will end up with a chronic shortage of female examiners. There needs to be a long-term strategy to get more women into these roles - maybe government grants to help fund the training, and ways to enable women to have help with childcare or other responsibilities plus generous remuneration and so on, to make such a career lucrative and worth their time.

It's the examiner's sex women want to be able to choose, not their gender. And I don't see how they'll be able to do that under the changes the Scottish government is proposing, or those it's already implemented, and that's before we even get to the NHS being just as bad on this issue.

Slightly a side issue but I can't get my head around being raped then forensically examines by a male doctor, even if women are chaperoning. If I was raped (again) and reported and then found it was a male doctor examining me, I'd withdraw my report/refuse to be examined.

I can't have smears by Male doctors/nurses and have a hard time even seeing a male dr in less intimate situations. I'm sure I'm not alone and it seems insane that women would have to be intimately examined by men after rape.

And I'm not suggesting they're up to no good, but I would question the empathy and compassion levels of a male dr who put himself forward for that particular specialist training in the first place. Fair enough if the system was already staffed with women and they needed a backup person. But not to add himself to a bank of male practitioners for women he knows will very likely have a problem with an intimate exam by a man and have to suck it up at an incredibly stressful and vulnerable time. Does it pay really well or something?

Maybe the use of gender is actually more accurate than sex here anyway. If you're not allowed to ask a man who claims he's a woman to prove he's a woman, which I believe is now law in Scotland(?), then effectively all you ask for is gender.

If a male dr says he's female the he is. Colleagues won't be able to say he's not female. So if there are two people on call, a man and a man who claims to be a woman, then don't meant the 29 May law change mean that the latter would be called for the rape victim, and she couldn't say no to the female titled dr on the basis of female titles dr being a man?

This is incredibly important area to get clarification on. The journo appears to have misquoted but has possibly been (deliberately) more accurate than the original words.

ahumanfemale
Good point about the journo perhaps having deliberately used the words gender. A doctor will not be able to override the law. And that’s giving me a lot of anxiety just thinking about it.

I think Ms Freeman is being disingenuous.

Here is the verbatim report.

Convener:

Thank you, cabinet secretary. As you said, the committee heard directly from survivors of rape and sexual assault. We heard from Sandy Brindley in person, as well as in writing. She put on the record that the single most important issue for survivors is access to a female doctor or examiner. How confident is the Scottish Government that, through the bill and the other changes that you have described, victims of rape and sexual assault will have a real choice about the gender of the examiner?

09:45

Jeane Freeman:

I am confident about that, based on the following. I say first that I agree completely that people should have that choice; it is particularly important in circumstances such as we are discussing

Now, some 61 per cent of sexual offence examiners are women, and 70 per cent of the doctors who have completed NHS Education for Scotland’s essentials in sexual offences forensic examinations foundation training are women. In addition, introduction of the role of nurse sexual offence examiner improves availability of choice, and work to maximise choice across the country will continue

There are clearly some restrictions to that. For example, where a team of sexual offence examiners is predominantly male, those individuals will be on contracts, so we have to find other ways to add to the number in order to offer choice. The task force has that work well in hand. The 61 per cent figure is, however, a significant improvement and illustrates the commitment to ensuring that choice is available

The full report is below. I can't find anything on a quick skim through which supports her version. The reporting of "gender" is correct. The Convenor used the word "gender". Freeman did not correct that.
www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=12717

Good point about the journo perhaps having deliberately used the words gender

The "journo" reported what was said. The word used was "gender".

Anyone a Times Subscriber. Really want to know are they talking about choosing a "gender" or do they mean sex

Freeman clearly thinks "gender" and "sex" are synonymous. She did not correct the Convenor's use of "gender"

Actually what I said was ‘choose the sex...” I’m not responsible for how a journalist reports

She did not say "choose the sex...". If she thinks she has been misreported she should take it up with the minute taker.

Whatever she says to wiggle about with it, the word used is gender. That's what is being written down, that is what will be used in practice, this is what Scotland are putting in law and they need to own it.

Gender is whatever someone says they are. End of.

So a rape victim can ask for a woman examiner, and be presented with someone who identifies themselves as a woman while the rape victim perceives them as male. And the self identified woman of course does not have to conform to any stereotypical appearance expectations, so this may be someone with a beard, fully male presenting.

At which point it's a straight up win/lose as to whose rights matter - the rape victim to insist that facts and her reality are more important, the TW to insist that rejection of their identity is a crime and intolerable even for a female patient in extreme distressing circumstances where this conflict is causing their patient more distress and cannot be said to be in their best interests - or the objective police and medical need that it is in everybody's interests that this exam is done quickly with the minimum distress to the rape victim, the evidence gathered and the rape victim given what treatment they need.

Under the law changes Scotland are about to make there will be no exemptions, the whole point is they are disposing of the exemptions and we already know: the activist lobby strongly state:

Females may never say no, regardless of their personal situation or the distress it causes them

The needs and rights of the TW always take precedence even if this means a medical professional is in the very odd position of insisting a patient meets their needs - which means putting aside the best interests of your patient for your own, which is against all standard ethics

It is better (and in fact a just punishment) that a female lose access to help and service than be allowed to say no to a TW

The female should be warned that their behaviour is unacceptable and against policy, and people behaving in such a way will not be tolerated in this place.

A female's race, faith, culture, beliefs, disabilities and traumas will not be taken into account.

Own it. Put it in the papers, tell the general public you coward, and own what you are doing to females in the name of happiness and rights for males.

She's being very "economical with the truth" isn't she ? I suppose she knows that a few words on Twitter will be far more widely read and taken at face value than a lengthy report of the minutes of a Holyrood Committee which most people would not even know where to find.

Does the new law mean that a man can choose a female examiner? I am sure that most medical professionals do not care whether they examine a male or female body, but I am interested to know whether a man could insist on a woman doing it?

I don't think 'gender' was an error; I think she is saying that under self ID 'gender' will replace sex.

There is no "new law"

The Forensic Medical Services (Victims of Sexual Offences) (Scotland) Bill is going through Holyrood.

The Bill's aim is allow forensic evidence to be kept for future use if a victim wants to take matters further. Victims can self refer to a health board rather than the police.I can't see anything in the Bill giving the right to ask for a specific sex to carry out the examination.

There is a Memorandum of Understanding which lists in its contents "Sex of Examiner". NHS Lanarkshire commented that "the patient's choice of sex of forensic examiner must be guaranteed by this legislation" Rape Crisis referred to "the right to have a choice of gender"

Thelnebriati

I don't think 'gender' was an error; I think she is saying that under self ID 'gender' will replace sex

Well who knows? She clearly made no mention of "sex" despite castigating a journalist for misreporting her.

I can't see anything in the Bill giving the right to ask for a specific sex to carry out the examination

Correction I missed a bit. The Bill will amend section 9 of The Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Act 2014 to allow a person

an opportunity to request that any such medical examination be carried out by a registered medical practitioner of a gender specified by the person

So it will be possible for a male victim to require that he is examined by a woman?

To be clear the 2014 Act already says "gender".

The 2014 Act will be amended to make clear that what it says about examinations where a complaint about an offence is being made will also apply to self- referral examinations under the Bill.

So it will be possible for a male victim to require that he is examined by a woman?

A male victim will be able to require the examination is carried out by a person of the gender specified by him. That is literally what the 2014 Act says and what the Bill says.